For most of my career, I was busy with work and the little remaining time was dedicated to my family. While this arrangement made me feel like I was taking care of everything, over time it left me feeling hollow.

Somehow I knew that the empty feeling was from not doing the things in life I was born to do.

When the pace would slow down a bit I would think up big plans for how I could fix my work or my life to fill that gap. But none of these dreams were practical – and deep down I didn’t believe that they would really fix things anyway.

Then one Saturday afternoon about ten years ago, I had a realization: I had been getting little signals all along about how to find what I was made to do. I just needed to follow my spark.

It happened when I took this photo of my daughter.

The little teardrop under Meg’s left eye took my breath away. I didn’t know why, but luckily I decided to do more photography.

I've since realized that it wasn’t because I was meant to only do photography.

But the photography tapped into the spark in me. It was the start of a great journey.

Following the photography led to amazing growth in my life. I met new friends. I took some beautiful photos of my daughters. I learned a lot about myself. Through more than a few ups and downs, photography taught me how to learn new things without going to school and without having to stop working or being a good dad and husband.

Through these and other paths, seeds were planted that helped shape what I get to do now: At a photography school in the mountains of North Carolina I shared a room with 70-year old Bob and learned how he managed a sane career at GE. In a photography group I learned about Photoshop but also met the blogger who inspired Avocationist.com.

You are not meant to feel like you are missing something inside.

When you start paying attention to your spark, that hollow ache will go away immediately. In its place will be energy and hope. And they lead to inspiration and ideas.

Here are some places to pay attention: What makes your heart beat faster? What stores always grab your eye? Whom do you admire?

Follow those impulses and find your spark.

Have you completed employee reviews in the last month? Did it feel like a good use of your time? Did you feel like you were really building value in your company or did you feel like you were checking off a box on someone else’s cover-my-butt list?

Be honest.

When your Outlook calendar is completely colored in and you don’t know what half of the meetings are, you should probably start to think about giving yourself a demotion.

I’ve been inspired reading Seth Godin’s new book “Linchpin” which launches today. (Buy it here. I love the book because you can dive in anywhere and pick up some uncomfortably challenging advice.)

In the spirit of Seth's book, I offer my favorite way to free up time while making a bigger impact at work...

One of Seth’s most uncomfortable sections (for those of you in corporate jobs) is on the commoditization of white-collar jobs. If you are just checking off other people’s boxes you are putting yourself at unnecessary risk of becoming just like any other middle manager. Which means that you can be replaced with any other middle manager.

Instead, Seth challenges each of us to become a Linchpin:

The linchpin is an individual who can walk into chaos and create order, someone who can invent, connect, create and make things happen. Every worthwhile institution has indispensable people who make differences like these.

If you are sitting in someone else’s meetings all week you aren’t becoming indispensable.

You are in a career holding pattern at best and in danger of a career death spiral at worst.

Working more hours will just make it harder for you to make a big contribution. You need a way to focus your efforts on something that will challenge you and bring real value to your company, without requiring another 30 hours of meetings each week.

Here’s my radical suggestion for creating more time and flexibility in your job: give yourself a demotion from management to a position where you can directly make a strategic contribution. I call this “strategic downshifting”.

Just like downshifting in a car, this gives you more power and control. It also makes your engine rev higher and gives you faster acceleration. That is to say, you can create a place where you can be excited about your work again.

I’ve done this three times in my career and I know of dozens of others who have had similar experiences. There are several factors to a successful downshift:

• Find a place where you are excited and can see new possibilities

After we sold a company where I was VP of Sales & Marketing, I was excited about applying our new parent company’s licensing business model to our old industry. I knew it was a chance to influence a significant change in the way optics were sold for cell phone cameras. But I couldn’t do it from my management role. Instead, I took responsibility for leading the business development efforts by myself with no team.

• Look at previous jobs to find great launching pads

Bob got passed over for a promotion early in his career at GE. Instead of continuing to press for a management role, he focused his productivity on inventing new products. He had a happy, sane 40 year career there and was awarded over 50 patents. (The guy who beat him out for the management job was let go 6 months later in a restructuring effort).

• Build a new constituency to support your efforts

Work with your management to ensure a graceful transition. Even more importantly, make sure that you have support from people excited about what you will be doing in your new (old) role. They can help smooth over any resistance you encounter.

• Watch out for the pull back into management

Traditional advice says that taking a step backwards on the career ladder means that you are done for. This is exactly the opposite of my experience. I have found that the wisdom and passion you bring to a downshifted role tends to bring results and recognition. My shift to a direct sales role netted me a bonus within 6 months.

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Check out what I learned at a No Doubt concert this weekend - how to know when you have outgrown your work.

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Want to do something different, but can't figure out what it is? Or how to do more meaningful work without jeopardizing your lifestyle?

Join me for a special tele-class this Wednesday night, June 10th at 5pm ET: Don't wait to test-drive your dreams (How to start now without quitting your job).

It's free for my newsletter subscribers.

This tele-class is part of a series I'm offering to take you from "I don't know what I want to be when I grow up" to "I would never have been able to envision how rich my life is now."

Sign up now because there are a limited number of spots left. I'll email you more details and a link to the recording of our first tele-class: "How to find a job as fun as your life was as a kid."

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Tom met a woman once who came close, but when every date was compared to that top 10 ideal, how could any real-life relationship survive? (By the way, he's pushing 40 now and is still single.)

I think that Tom had it all backwards.

Tom was working too hard on having everything figured out up front, and not enough time getting out there and being open to the spark he would feel when he met someone who was a good fit for him. That feeling of attraction would be a much more accurate indicator of a good match than any 10 or 100 or 1000 item list Tom could come up with.

And his list kept Tom from starting relationships that could have taught him the true way long-term couples stay together: It's not because they are perfect matches, it's because they have committed to the relationship.

They've committed to something bigger than just their own "Top 10 lists" of needs.

I'm telling you this because I made my own "Tom list" - only I wasn't looking for the Perfect Girl, I was looking for the Perfect Job.

And I didn't have any more success with my list than Tom did with his.

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Even though I knew how self-defeating this "Tom's Top 10" approach was in relationships, I went through much of my career thinking that the perfect job was not only achievable, but that it was the only way to have a career that was both meaningful and enjoyable.

And I had figured out the perfect route to the perfect job:

All I needed was a perfect understanding of myself...

E-S-F J-Oh-My

ESFJ, "mid D, high I, low S, low C", StrengthsFinder "Individualization and Ideation Themes".

Do any of these sound familiar? They are "types" - the outputs of career tests. I have a thick binder at home that has the results of all of the tests I've taken over the years.

They are fun to do. I always come away feeling better about myself because they write the "type" descriptions in ways that emphasize the positive. Everyone ends up with a type description like the fortune cookie I've gotten a few times: "You are talented in many ways". Or the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes envelopes: "Congratulations, you are a winner!"

The nice thing about all of these tests was that they were easy. Not much work for me: I just wrote the check, took the test and waited for the debriefing afterwards.

But as I kept asking "What do I do with these results?", I started to realize something important - these tests aren't really designed to help you identify your ideal work - they are a short-cut to help career counselors get a quick read on you. And, they provide a standardized way for them to give advice "in categories".

This isn't a bad thing, but it started to undermine the credibility of this "perfect job" idea that I had.

And, as I learned more about myself, I realized that I was just adding more and more requirements to my list.

Like Tom with his idea of the perfect girl, I was bordering on the ridiculous because no company or job was going to be able to provide this complex mix of needs.

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Photo courtesy woodleywonderworks

Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this second of a two-part interview, Patricia talks about losing her first academic job, finding her path to an even better position and the life lessons that gave birth to her book Improv WISDOM.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What if you do everything by the book…and fail?

2. What would happen if I just acted like me?

3. Is the purpose of life just to be happy?

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: To get back to your career path, you were at St. Catherine’s School teaching and still taking classes: what happened next?

Patricia: I realized that I loved teaching and something in me said, “I think you might enjoy teaching at a higher level.” I was managing kids, but I know by nature that I am not a kid kind of person. I don’t have any children myself and I feel awkward with babies, toddlers, really any child under 15, but give me a high school or college-aged kid, and I am very good. Something said to me, “I think you want to keep teaching. You have found your niche here, but it could be great if you do it at the college level.”

“It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.”

So, after 2 years at St. Catherine’s I went back to graduate school to get a degree, because if I wanted to teach at the college level, I needed a Master’s Degree. I went to Wayne State University where I was part of their Hillberry Classic Repertory Company. It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.

Avocationist: Do you remember some of the roles you had?

Patricia: I was Helena in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, I was Calpernia in “Julius Caesar”, and I was Lysistrata in “Lysistrata”; they were classic Shakespearian roles. I was there three years and probably did about a dozen roles. I was a classic comedian. I was the loud, funny woman in the Shakespearian comedies. That was my prototype. I had a great time there.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

After I completed my Master’s Degree it led right into a fabulous job as an assistant professor at Denison University in Granville, OH. That is where my book starts and that is where I tell the story of being a college teacher where I am just happy as a clam. I had rented a lovely little house in a kind of “Gidget Goes to College” town in Ohio. I was happy and completely ready to settle in for the duration. What I began doing at that point was trying to please “The Man”. I was trying to do everything that I could to get tenure including sitting on all of the right committees and trying to figure out the political angles in the University. Basically what would look good on my resume? I really became obsessed with getting tenure because that would then mean, in my thinking, that I could just settle in and keep teaching without ever having to make a change. I liked it and I wanted to make it permanent.

“It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards.”

But I wasn’t really following any kind of sense of my dream or my wonder or my talent; I was just trying to figure out how to please the university establishment. I would advise anyone not to do that because it might work, and if it does work, it is not a good idea. It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards. It is not that the things that I did weren’t worthwhile, but what happened, of course, is that I did do everything right. I even got a university teaching award so I was sure I was set for life. Then the letter stating, “I am sorry we are not going to give you tenure,” and I think the wording was, “Your work lacks intellectual distinctiveness.” I thought, “Whoa! Hold on!” And then I paused and thought, “Wait a minute. Actually they are right.” I had not been following the kind of training that actually meant something to me. I had been doing things politically, or trying to please everyone and had not once spent a summer doing something that I thought was marvelous.

“I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life.”

So I didn’t get tenure and I got booted out of Denison. I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life. I didn’t know what I was going to do. But if you interview people that have ever been fired that it is often a seminal moment in their life and it turns out to be was the greatest thing that could have happened. It was certainly true in my case and I am very grateful that Denison did not keep me on because I don’t know… I would have probably died an alcoholic in a small apartment in Ohio or something from having stayed there.

“They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work.”

They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work. I started looking for either a theater job or a faculty job. In no time at all I got a really, REALLY good job as an assistant professorship at Penn State; a bigger school with a more interesting department.

“Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules.”

So I took the job and as I went I said to myself, “Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules. You are going to do what you believe you need to do and want to do and what follows your heart. That way if you don’t get tenure this time, you can’t look back and be sorry. To thine own self be true. Be true to your own heart - whatever that is- and if you get to stay at Penn State great, and if not, oh well. You can still feel good about yourself even if you don’t manage to hang on there.

“It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more.”

It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more. Penn State would have kept me forever, I think. It turned out that I was in a very agreeable situation. I was about to get tenure at Penn State when Stanford invited me to come and head their undergraduate acting program. All of a sudden when I started doing the things that I really love to do, the rest of the world respected it. So I got what I wanted, which was the respect of the academy, but not by trying to please them. I got it by following my own talents and heart.

Avocationist: The one thing I wanted to ask you that is related to that; in your book you talked about how you took up Tai Chi and you spent your summers traveling. What did that do for you in terms of your work, or did it?

Patricia: The thing was, instead of writing academic papers about theater or something, I just started trying these things. When I got to California I was really drawn into Eastern Philosophy, Religion, and Tai Chi. I went to Asia to study traditional Japanese art and the world of Eastern thought and practices. These included spiritual disciplines as well as Tai Chi and Yoga. All of these things were so interesting to me. I was like a kid in a candy shop in California taking workshops on crystal healing, studying Chakra this and Hindu that. I had so much fun looking at the world around me for experiences that could enrich my life. I have always been a philosophical thinker so I was thrilled when I got to California and there were more than just 5 Christian religions and a Jewish religion around. There was Taoism and 10 kinds of Buddhism and Hinduism and I became a Sufi for a while. I had a fabulous first 10 years in California trying things out and following my wonder.

Avocationist: How did that affect your acting and your teaching?

Patricia: It opened it up in a lot of ways. Often the best way to enhance the knowledge of your own subject is to look at it from another vantage point. So I began to see theater and acting from a much broader prospective and a more enhanced human dimension. Growing up in the rural south in Virginia, I didn’t know anything about things that were Asian and certainly didn’t know anything about Japan or Japanese people. I delved into a system called, “Constructive Living,” which is an American psychologist named David Reynolds’s take on two Japanese psychotherapies. I found his books as part of my search for trying new things. I have always been interested in psychology and I found a book called Constructive Living. I thought, “Wow! He is saying things that I believe completely and it is a really practical concept.” So as one of my adventures, I went off and studied with this teacher, David Reynolds. I became certified to be a Constructive Living™ instructor which added a dimension to my life that was not about teaching drama, but it was about psychology. The principles that are fundamental to my book really came from the juxtaposition of studying improvisational theater on the one hand and psychology on the other. These two things came together in me so my work with my book Improv WISDOMis an amalgamation of an Eastern philosophy/psychology and some Western ideas about creativity, theater, and improv.

“It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv.”

It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv. Low and behold, all of this was necessary to create the world view which I have now and allows me to see life as an improvisation which can be utilized by moving constructively forward; trying new things and not getting pushed around by your feelings.

Avocationist: This probably explains the broad appeal of your book because people can relate to it from different places.

Patricia: Yes. It was more like I timed the retirement when I knew that the book was going to be published. It took me a very long time to get a publisher. For all of 10 years I was sending drafts of a version of the book to various publishers and getting it sent back saying, “There are some interesting things here and you seem to have two books: you seem to have a manual on how to improvise, which is a drama book, and then you seem to have a self-help book here. Make up your mind on one or the other. Nobody is going to publish this kind of hybrid thing.” So it kept morphing.

At one point I thought, “I cannot seem to find a legitimate publisher so I will just publish it myself.” I have a friend in Canada who is a psychologist who had just published her own book on grieving and said, “I know this wonderful editor named Susan Mazie in British Columbia. You could probably hire her,” which I did. She was a private editor for me. We worked together and the goal of this was to help me self-publish it.

“You really will be able to find a publisher for this.”

We wrote for 4 months and I ended up spending a couple of thousand dollars; maybe $500/month for 4 months to have a personal editor who gave me feedback and good help with the book. When we got into a finished product, she said to me, “This is too good to self-publish. You really will be able to find a publisher for this. I am sure. Now that you have this, let’s see if we can’t put it into the pipeline again in a new way.”

“It was a dream and it was fabulous.”

What I found out at that point was that with a new version of the book the key thing was to write a book proposal. I did this when I got a New York agent. That was critical. This wonderful agent helped me draft the pitch for the book, which made it seem like people would want to publish it. When the proposal was done it went out to 35 major publishers in and around New York and 13 of them came back and expressed interest in wanting to buy the book. It was an amazing thing. I was ready to self-publish and all of a sudden we were having a bidding war. It was a dream and it was fabulous. That was in 2003. Fortunately, some of the publishers dropped out and two or three stayed until the end. The one that finally won the contract was the perfect publisher because the editor is a woman who publishes spiritual books and understood what this book was. She helped me with the writing and the conception of the book, so I had really, really brilliant help getting it to life. That was all happening and I knew I had a publication for spring of 2005.

“I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do..”

I had been winding down my teaching at Stanford and teaching only two quarters out of three so when it looked like the book was going to actually happen, I realized I was ready to officially enter retirement status at Stanford. I am so happy that I did. It has been perfect. I was extremely busy the first couple of years running around doing book appearances. I was the all university Honor’s Speaker at Southern Illinois University in 2007. I have had really nice gigs. I am not seeking them. I am at home and I have my website and the book is out there moving around. Every month or so I will get a call or get an email that says, “The book meant a lot to me and I want to do an interview” or “I would like to invite you to do something…” so I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do.

Avocationist: When you started writing your book, did you intend for it to be what it turned out to be for you, or did you have a different purpose in life?

Patricia: It was my deepest hope and dream that it would have a broad and wide readership, but I would never have believed in the outset that I would be able to accomplish it this way. I don’t have high ambitions. I really have had low hurdles for myself. I have never dreamed big. But there was a wish in my heart that before I die I could write a small, very slim book on philosophy that was based on what I do, that would also be helpful to people. To me the book is this funny wineskin of being an improv wisdom manual, but it says what I want to say. I have been trying to work on another book, but it is hard for me. I have said exactly all that I know is useful and I said it in the way that I planned; simple and clear. So why do I need to write another book? But on the other hand, people who have a message will often write another book teaching the same message, but in different way. I am hoping that I will be able to write some more and perhaps include more of my stories.

“I have had a really interesting life.”

I have had a really interesting life. I have been able to travel all over the globe and had some fascinating experiences. I think some of the crazy things that I have done and lessons I have learned in my life provide grist for another book.

Avocationist: Can you think of any stories in particular or experiences in particular that stand out for you?

Patricia: The lay-away story that I am working on doesn’t sound very exotic, but it has the lesson of that we need - the importance of working for something and building on it and paying for it in advance. There are other things. I did a trip around the world in 1982 where I was on my own for about 19 months; India, Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia and Japan. Traveling alone teaches you some amazing things about yourself. I spent time at a Tibetan Buddhist Monastery. I ran away from a meditation retreat in Japan; I literally jumped the fence and hitchhiked back to reality because it felt like I was in a cult. I have some interesting stories about trying things and then learning the lessons from the crazy things you do.

Avocationist: Where there any people particularly helpful to you in your career?

Patricia: I would have to say that David Reynolds is one of the two main influences that have been seminal in my adult life. He helped me form a clear understanding of how humans work and given me excellent knowledge about how to live a purposeful life. One of the principles in constructive living is to know your purpose, accept reality and accept your feelings. Then do what you need to do and always maintain an awareness of what you are receiving from others. Those four things are the core of my life philosophy. Know or consider your purpose, accept reality as it is; you don’t have to like it but accept it. Then what you need to do is notice how much you are receiving from others.

“I like doing rather than lecturing.”

Another major influence on the improv side is Keith Johnstone who is a Canadian. He is an educator/teacher/philosopher whose book Impro has been important in my understanding. I have always been an active person. I like doing rather than lecturing. I am not good at all as a keynote speaker, but I am really good in the classroom where I am hopping around and we are active together seeing what works.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are trying to figure out what to do next?

Patricia: I would say, if you’ve got an inkling of something that you love
or something that is calling to you I would not say, “Just follow your passion.” That is kind of a cliché. I would say keep your eyes open because there may be offers all around you that you are not interpreting as offers yet. So an improviser is looking for anything that might be a possibility. Be aware and try things. Take a step in some direction. That might mean volunteering or giving yourself away or going out of your comfort zone. It might be something as simple as, “Well I am not really good at hiking – I don’t like it and I am not an outdoors kind of person - so I don’t think I will go on that Sierra Club walk.” But you might do it for another person to accompany them and please them. Try new things and see where they lead. Don’t miss the chance to join the dance of living in the now.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

Patricia: I don’t think so. Not with anything I have done or not done.
Avocationist: You know of the people I talk to (and I look for people who have found a way to live their calling), I rarely have anybody say they have any regrets.
How would you like to be remembered?

Patricia: I would love to be remembered as a teacher and the other thing I would love to be remembered for is that my book would live on. Since I don’t have children and I don’t have the legacy of a blood family from my personal loins, I think of Improv WISDOMas my child out in the world. I hope it lives on and it is in the 5th printing now. There have never been huge numbers of the book, but I would love for it to keep circulating in the world and about 100 years from now somebody will have that book in a backpack; an old book, a classic from the 20th century, their little of manual of good advice that could help someone in the future. That would be a great legacy because I am proud of that book and would want it to live on. The best favor you can do is to tell people about it or recommend it.

Avocationist: I think you have really boiled down a lot of things that, in my own experience, that a lot of these things are fundamental to human happiness; they are almost counter-cultural, in the sense that they are not what our current society thinks of and so forth, so people need to understand the power of these simple ideas, and how fun it is; it is so fun.

Patricia: Finally the message is, enjoy the ride! Try to find joy in whatever you are doing. It is seeing that the pleasure in the ordinary is in our daily life. I think if you have ever hurt your leg and couldn’t walk for awhile and then you finally get back the ability to walk normally, you think about what a blessing normalcy is and it is a pleasure in being able to walk. If you can walk again, you really know how fabulous it is. I think most of us are walking through our lives right now with a lot of ordinary capabilities that we can walk and breathe and eat and have a roof over our heads. We can feed ourselves and we have the capacity to get information and read books. We are, as Reynolds says in his book, “Thirsty, swimming in the lake,” that we are in the midst of paradise right now, no matter what our circumstance. We are in paradise right now need to wake up and see that, appreciate our lives now and spend time not only in following our wonder, but also turning our attention to being helpful to others. That is finally where satisfaction comes, not just being an artist, because that might be it, but in some ways being useful to others.

Avocationist: That is the purpose part. What do you think you will do next?

Patricia: That is a really good question and I ask myself that a lot and I get ideas from time to time. One of the things that I might do is really seriously blogging. I have a blog that I have been a dilettante with; the blog is http://www.mymprovwisdom.blogspot. com and it has probably 20-30 posts the last couple of years, just book reviews and stuff I did. I think the world of blogging can be really helpful to a lot of folks and I might get myself into a weekly blog, so that is one possibility. The other thing is to probably put some serious effort into this book of stories of my life and get another book into the world. In the meantime I am getting ready to show up teaching a class for Continuing Studies. I am always happy to show up as a teacher from time to time.

Avocationist: Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Patricia: I don’t think so. You have asked wonderful questions and I am grateful for your comprehension of my book and my ideas, so you have made it easy.

Avocationist: My pleasure. When I work on my book I will share it with you because I think there is a big overlap. I am just looking at it through a different lens, but I think we are touching on some similar topics and your book has been really helpful as well.

Patricia: Let me know and I will be one of the first ones to buy a copy.

Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this first of a two-part interview, Patricia discusses her early career path and shares her belief that thinking “inside the box” can often lead to more creative solutions.

“Trust your weird instincts”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What can happen if you just do work you love

2. How a regular paycheck give you freedom

3. How a book can create a busy retirement

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Could you tell me what you do for a living now or how you spend most of your time now?

Patricia: I am retired now from full-time university teaching and consulting, which I did for 40 years as a university teacher. Since I started my retirement I have been almost busier than I was in my working career. Most people say that.

“I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.”

I wrote a book called Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up, which was published by Random House, Bell Tower Books in 2005 and I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that, if the book came out and the book did what I hoped it would do, it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.

What I am doing now is basically, every day, doing something that will help promote the book or try to get it into a wider readership. I do that by checking blogs and doing blog searches to see if anyone has mentioned the book, which happens fairly regularly.

“In March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview.”

As well as talking about it here and there, I have been really fortunate because the book has gotten really nice press, and in March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview. They mentioned the book and talked about Improv as a mindset that is being utilized by businesses. Having a big article in the NYT is huge.

“I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held.”

I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held. Remax asked me to be a keynote speaker about improvising in business. And then a couple of weeks later I was in Oakland, CA working with some social workers who are first call responders to youth in crises and I did an Improv workshop with them using improvisational thinking and mindsets to help deal with youth in crises.

“The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me.”

The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me. For example “ I got an email from a person in Virginia who trains psychotherapists and who uses the book as a training manual and gives them a copy when they graduate for psychotherapy training.
It is like, “Wow! Here is a book that is helping real estate agents and businessmen and social workers and psychotherapists and social workers and ministers with their sermons, and all sorts of things. Hurray!”

Avocationist: You worked on this book for a long time?

Patricia: Yes I did; 20 years. Literally I started over 20 years ago. I was teaching a class for adults in Stanford night school, their Continuing Studies Program, which is open to anyone. I taught classes that had 20-30 adults that were Silicon Valley computer geeks, librarians, retired people, people in transition; moms and whatnot. These are adults that would come for a 10-week course to learn how to improvise. People who took the Improv classes, said, “Golly! This is useful information. You ought to write a book!”

“The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.”

So I started writing in 1992 and it was then that the book began; actually it has been 20 years so that would take it back to 1988. I had a first version of the book in 1998. It was long process. The book has continued to morph from one thing into another. As I have grown older and learned more things, the ideas have been more refined; the gist of them has gotten clearer. The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.

Avocationist: If you could think of what is the core of the book after the 20 years of refining it, what would you say that is?

Patricia: I would say the book is basically how to find your voice; believing in yourself and trusting your own ideas and then checking them out. I think a lot of us have ideas about what we want or how we might want to live our lives, and sometimes we act on them and sometimes we don’t. I think the real message of Improv is ‘Wake up and pay attention to life; don’t just live in your head’. The attention is partly intellectual, but a lot of it is really visual and sensory. Move your attention out into the world around you; notice other people and notice what is happening. Deeply in the Improv message is to pay attention to life. Get out of your ruminating, planning, thinking, fearing brain and wake up to what is actually happening, and then, take a chance.

“Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens.”

One of the other maxims is: make mistakes and take a risk. The improviser doesn’t know how his actions are going to turn out. You can’t think into the future and you are not supposed to. You just stay in the present and try something. The real message is to try and take a step. Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens. Then you have data. Once you have taken a step in any direction, you have more data about whether you like that direction or not and whether there is a path there. I think this can apply to the thing that you are studying, which is how to help turn around a life that might be not going in the direction that one wants or is not really fulfilling. An example of that might be, if there is something that you are passionate about, something that you love that may be in the avocational area of your own existence, find ways to devote more time to that. Maybe you could volunteer to give yourself a way of doing it. Some of these things can lead into a wage-earning activity. You might create a new job that may not even exist.

Avocationist: I agree with that. As you follow your instincts, you will find other people that like these same things you do and you can form your own support group of people that are like you with the same interest.

Patricia: The world is full of amazing potential and it is not so much even thinking outside the box, which is the common terminology for thinking creatively, but I would suggest you think inside the box with clearer eyes, and that means looking at what is really obvious to you. Write what is obvious to you and do the thing that you are very good at or that pulls your attention and draws you. I think we are all born naturally with interests and talents and proclivities, if given a chance to try out various things. I am always suggesting people follow their wonder or their passion or something that seems interesting to them, no matter how illogical it may be.

“Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later.”

I do believe that everything we do is grist for the mill and becomes part of the mix of who we are. It doesn’t have to be logical. Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later. Trust your weird instincts.

Avocationist: I agree with that and have experienced that as well. I got back into a hobby of photography and found a group locally in Charlotte. A speaker came one time to talk about what I thought was going to be the subject of lighting, but he ended up talking about his blog and that led me to start this blog. It turned out to be a different thing I was interested in and it all started because of exploring one thing that I was interested in, photography, and had nothing to do with my work or anything else.
Take me back to how your career started.

Patricia: I was a philosophy major in college – philosophy and Greek studies – real practical things. I was the first in my family to go to college, and I put myself through college working in a Thom McCann Shoe Store and living at home. I loved going to college. I loved thinking and studying and was not even considering a job or a career or anything. I finished college and there I was with my philosophy degree in one hand and my Greek studies in the other and thought, “Well, what job is suitable for you?” I looked around and nobody was really hiring philosophy majors or Greek study majors. I was not suited for anything.

“Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.”

Instead of just giving up at that point, I thought, “Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.” I am trying to figure out how on earth I managed. I took a job as a waitress just to earn my keep and I was still living at home for that time. I followed my wonder at a critical point and I started taking classes at another college in theater, which was hardly a logical choice. Theatre classes were not likely to lead to any gainful employment, if you think about it.

Avocationist: Had you acted before, like back in high school?

Patricia: Yes, a little bit in high school and then while I was back in college studying philosophy, I got into the drama group and I was in plays. That is what I loved doing, but I wasn’t a major or anything. So I thought, “I would really like to study this.” Again, not thinking it was going to lead to any career because I was intelligent enough to know that you are not going to earn a living as an actor, for heaven’s sake.

“The head of the department said, ‘You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher’”

Then, one semester into classes at Richmond Professional Institute the head of the department said, “You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher, and actually St. Catherine’s School for Girls is a private Episcopal school here that is looking for a drama teacher. If you would like, I will put your name up for that because I think you would be really good for in that position.”

“I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.”

So this amazing thing happened after only one semester of formally studying drama: I found myself the head of the drama program at St. Catherine’s School for Girls, which was fabulous. I was living as a resident teacher in Richmond and had an apartment and got my food at the school and had the princely salary of $3500/ per year plus room and board. This was like in 1963 and I was a drama teacher, and I loved it! I had fallen into this without really even trying. I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.

Avocationist: What did you think the head of the department saw in you that made him think that you would be a good teacher?

Patricia: I don’t know. I think he was right because I think deep in my soul more than anything else, I am a teacher. It didn’t matter that it was drama and it is not that what he saw in me was an actress or a director, he saw in me someone who loved to communicate about education. That has been true throughout my life and I have always been and have the soul of a teacher, but I never thought about teaching or being a high school teacher. So he saw that… I think part of it is intellectual; a kind of capacity for thinking in a certain way, good communication skills and the like. The other thing that really suits me to be a teacher is that I like a salary and a regular job. I would be a really lousy business person trying month by month to figure out how to get to the next month. I would be a bad boss for myself. I love having a regular paycheck and being able to figure out how to live on what I was bringing in, which I have always been able to do. I am very sensible at finance and even on $3500/year that first year, I saved $800 and was able to travel to England. Isn’t that something? Saving is another one of those things - I don’t write about this in the book - but I think it is something I learned at an early age and I am so proud of how I manage money. I am a good saver and I never overspend. I think part of the problem that the world is in today is that we have started believing that all you need is a credit card and the world can be yours. Instant gratification is always around with purchases and money and it has become culturally widespread. I was thinking about how to write my next book called Bring Back Lay-Away!

Avocationist: I have actually seen that some stores are doing that this year.

Patricia: I started writing an article a year ago that is about managing your life by being really careful about saving and putting things away for the future. That is another secret of my success, that no matter what I earned, even when it was $3500/year, I saved $800 of that. I am a saver so that allows me to take risks if I have created some kind of small cushion for myself. I am not fearful that if I don’t do “X”, then I am not going to be able to feed my family. So by looking at whatever situation you are in and being realistic about your money, saving carefully, and how you spend is part of the mix. I think by being able to talk about these other philosophical issues - taking a risk and following your wonder is possible if you have your rent paid.

Avocationist: Another thing that occurs to me about what you are saying is that, a lot of times if you have constraints that you put on yourself and on your spending, it helps you to be more creative and conscientious about what you do. I remember one year my wife and I decided that because we had bought a new house and we didn’t have a lot of extra money that we would just spend $10 on each other for Christmas gifts that year. I found a little $9.95 photo album and put together this really nice gift for her that was probably more meaningful than if I had spent a lot more money. Also I had a great time doing it. Those are the sorts of things that you don’t do if you can buy anything you want.

Patricia: That is true and I think that is at the heart of the message of the book plus it involves the value of restraint and limits in life because it forces us to be more creative. In the world we live in today we often have more money than we need, and we use that money more than we use thoughtfulness. We all know, and there is a lot of data that shows prosperity does not bring happiness in itself, that there are other human values that are going to make the difference (time with our community and family, getting away from the television, and eating healthy food, for example are simple things that bring us happiness).

Avocationist: Yes; and those things don’t necessarily cost anything at all.

In the third of a three-part interview, HomeExchange.com founder Ed Kushins discusses his most difficult and most rewarding careers, the professor who changed his perspective on life, and his advice for those seeking career success.

“What has actually happened is that this has become a hugely successful, profitable business.”

Read the interview and find out:

1. What it’s like to love your job
2. How economics impacts whether you help your Mom
3. What is the key to career success

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Ed, of all of the jobs that you have done, which were your favorite?

Ed:Well, I loved every minute of my job on the submarine. It was exciting and rewarding and interesting and it was thrilling. I really enjoyed my whole Navy experience. I recommend it for anyone.

“There is nothing that I have ever done that I loved as much as Home Exchange.”

I really liked the first years of growing the metal recycling business. The years after I got the business and I was keeping everything going, I wouldn’t say I didn’t like it, but I really liked the growing part of it. There is nothing that I have ever done that I loved as much as Home Exchange. I totally believe in the Home Exchange concept and because of that, I feel like any part of the work I don’t mind doing. I don’t mind doing the grunt work because I know it is good for the business, and especially because I like the marketing part of it because I like talking to people about it.

“Because of my marketing background, I love finding new ways to market the program.”

Because of my marketing background, I love finding new ways to market the program to what we call affinity groups. Through our efforts we have a Rotary Home Exchange, which we have private labeled for a Rotary International. And YPO; it is the Young President’s Organization, and it’s 16,000 Presidents and CEOs that are under 50 years old, we have just done a private label for them.

“It’s been really a lot of fun taking that pitch on the road.”

We are going to launch for some alumni groups. It’s been such a wonderful product to try to sell because we have been able to go to an alumni group and say, “Listen, here is a free employee/student/faculty and alumni benefit. You don’t have any cost to the university and you can offer this benefit for faculty to travel during the summer, for alumni to travel and exchange with other alumni or just take their own vacations. For parents of students to come visit their student at school and not stay at a hotel. We are going to give discounts to all of those groups and give the university a commission and you don’t have to do anything or pay anything. All you have to do is make the service available to those people through your own marketing channels.” It’s been really a lot of fun taking that pitch on the road. It is offering like a win/win/win/win/win, no cost, no effort revenue coming in situation. It is hard for them to say no to that.

Avocationist:And you get to spread the word about something that you really care about.

Ed:I think I mentioned that my original idea was just to use this as a way to take a couple of trips and maybe tie in a little business and pleasure. What has actually happened is that this has become a hugely successful, profitable business; very profitable and growing, beyond my wildest expectations. It has been beyond fun. If you take that success is liking what you have to do, if you add in making a lot of money at the same time, that is what we have going right now.

Avocationist:Were there any of the transitions that you had to go through that were particularly difficult?

Ed:Yes. The growing transitions are always difficult. Everything takes five times longer than you think it is going to take and the results are 20 percent of what you think they are going to be and the expenses are five times more and the revenue is 20 percent as much. So those transitions are always tough. I have actually had a few other start-ups, so I was ready for that, but even so, it is always tougher than you think it is going to be. You like to have optimistic expectations.

Avocationist: Along the way were there any people who were especially helpful to you in your careers?

Ed:Yes, there were quite a few. One in particular was my economics professor at UCLA who gave me the grounding of economics – not in the GNP kind of economics, but the economics of personal behavior that really set, not just my business philosophy, but really my philosophy of life. It is hard to believe that economics would do that, but that is what the guy did. My next avocation is probably writing a book, which I have drafted, about personal decision-making and between you and me; there is an economic basis for everyone’s decisions about everything. It’s not just about what they spend their money on, but what they do; how they spend their time and what they do with their marriage and their kids and their relationships.

Avocationist:Can you give me an example?

Ed:I will give you one that has nothing to do with money. The basis is that everything people do is an economic decision in terms of the cost and the benefit. Whether they do the analysis logically or emotionally, that is how everybody makes their decisions. Because of that, people have much more freedom than they realize. For example, if someone has a nine-to-five job, they will say, “I have to go to work today.” But the reality is they don’t have to go to work. The reason they go to work is that they have made this subconscious cost/benefit analysis that “If I go to work, I will get paid and if I don’t go to work I could get fired or I won’t get paid for the day.” It may be conscious or it may be subconscious, but they don’t have to go to work. But if they don’t go to work, there will be a cost associated with that. Now most people don’t go through that logical process to evaluate what the cost is; they just say, “I have to go to work.” Even if they went through the logical process, they would say, “Well, what is the cost if I don’t go to work? What is the probability that I will get fired or not get a raise?” There is all this cost/benefit analysis stuff going on and it has to do with money a little bit.

“Am I going to miss the baseball game or feel guilty about not doing something that my mother is using just as a way to get me over to the house?”

Here is another one. Let’s say you have plans to go to the baseball game and your mother calls and says, “I can’t get the pilot light on my stove lit.” Now it is a different kind of economic analysis. “Am I going to miss the baseball game or feel guilty about not doing something that my mother is using just as a way to get me over to the house?” It’s an economic analysis. The cost of going to the baseball game is an emotion; a guilt. It is not anything having to do with money, but there is a cost to that. The cost of going to your mother’s house to do something that she doesn’t really need done is the cost of giving up something that is going to give you some amount of pleasure.

“People think that I am almost a genius for coming up with these things that I learned in Marketing 101.”

Anyway, that guy taught me a lot about human behavior in that economics class. Basically, when people make a decision that involves me, I look at it now as that they are not doing it to me, at me or for me. They are really making their own decision and because I understand that, it allows me to feel more comfortable with other people’s decisions, not just my own.

I had a marketing professor at USC who did the same thing. He taught me a lot of things that the absolute basics of marketing that apply at every level of business and I have taken it with me places. I have dusted them off and used them and people think that I am almost a genius for coming up with these things that I learned in Marketing 101 at grad school from this guy.

Avocationist:It seems to me that your interest in those personal interactions would play into how you get people comfortable with the whole concept of the Home Exchange, too.

Ed:It really is, and it is funny that you mention that because I had to go to Chicago about a month ago for this ABC show and they wanted me there with one of our members. So I called a couple of members and two of them offered to be on the show. The TV show selected one of them, but the other member was so interesting, I ended up going to dinner with her because she is a professor at the University of Northern Illinois at Chicago, and her field of expertise is building trust between people. I said, “This would be great because you are a Home Exchange member and you understand this thing about having a stranger in my house at the gut level, but then you also know it at the academic level.” So we had a four-hour dinner and I learned so much from this woman. It was incredible. I felt like the things I had learned were pieces of the puzzle and she sort of put everything together. It was really, really interesting, and we are actually using a lot of what she said into the next iteration of our website design.

“Trust has many, many, many different levels.”

Just to give you a little: Trust has many, many, many different levels. Probably the one thing that helps build trust is increasing numbers and levels of interactions. They can be very, very passive or they can be very, very active. There are all kinds of interactions. Going back to the Home Exchange, there are things that we can do on the site because this thing about “having a stranger in my house” is one of the biggest pre-obstacles to people being open to the concept. There are all kinds of interactions that we can create that will help break down that barrier. For example, a testimonial, even if it is one-sided, it is a passive interaction that will help break down a barrier. Does that make sense?

Avocationist:Absolutely. When I searched for homes, the first thing I did was to look for people who had done it before. I knew that those people were going to be respectful of it and understand it. I also wanted to find families with girls who were my daughters’ ages because they were in the same situation.

Ed:So we are going to find ways that are not necessarily the networking, but taking those interaction levels that start out passive and open the door to becoming active. If you have three girls and if you could search for three girls, right away, that is going to give you some feeling of connection with that person on the other side. It can go to mountain biker, pilot, yoga… whatever.

Avocationist:Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what they want to do next?

Ed:Do or find something that you really, really love to do and you can find a way to make that your vocation. Are you are going to get into a gardening business because you think you can make some money at it? You might be able to make some money, but unless you really like what you are doing, you are not going to make as much money and you are not going to be as happy. Unless you really, really like it, you are not going to make as much money as if you are doing something that you really, really like and understand. If you like fishing, get into something to do with the fishing business.

Avocationist:I agree that people need to do anything related to something they love. Even if it is just spending an hour a night looking on the Internet, you will find ideas; it will come if it is something that you really, really like. It is not hard to get started.

Ed:Yes, and I think if you love it, you are going to be able to find ways to market it and things to do with the business that you wouldn’t be able to if you didn’t love it. So find what you like to do and that is where you outta be.

Avocationist:Is there anything else you would like to add?

Ed:Just two more things. One of the things I love about this business is making connections with people. I don’t do it with the idea that “What can I get out of it?” Karma exists, and if you do stuff, somehow, someway, it does come back. I cannot tell you how many times three or four years after something I did, not having any idea that there was going to be this different connection, it came back.

“Three weeks ago, he called me up out of the blue and I had not talked to him for a year, with a huge connection for me for Home Exchange; an unbelievable, great connection, out of nowhere.”

I met this guy about three years ago and we did a business deal and it didn’t really work out, but that was fine because we both went into it with our eyes open. I kept in touch with this guy and a couple of people said, “Well that didn’t work out.” I said, “You know what? I took a shot and he is a nice guy.” Three weeks ago, he called me up out of the blue and I had not talked to him for a year, with a huge connection for me for Home Exchange; an unbelievable, great connection, out of nowhere.

Avocationist:I have found the same thing.

Ed:Here is an interesting story. One of my members, after he arranged this, called me up and said, “I sold my company and I bought a golf course. The golf course is basically running by itself and I have three kids all under 8 years old, and I wanted to let you know that I just arranged a Home Exchange and we are going to France for a year and I am putting my kids into French Public School.” I thought this was a fantastic story so I kept in touch with the guy. His golf course was in Arizona and I had a TV interview there, so I went over to meet the people who had done the exchange with him and were living in his house. This guy is in France and his year is almost up. You know what? They

1. How do you start work you are passionate about if you cannot leave your job?
2. How do you know when it is the right time to start a new company?
3. What's the best way to try out a "potential passion"?

Also, look for upcoming interviews with a software salesman-turned trainer and online entrepreneur, the man whose love of music inspired him to start the first online music channel and a music promoter turned ministry student turned music promoter turned minister/music promoter... (Photo courtesy of franz88).

A military officer. A minister. A politician. A track coach. While these may sound like four different people, Jim Watkins has worn all these hats in his 65 years. Each path has been vastly different, but the common thread through them all his Jim’s ability to lead and organize, notably as District Director for Congressman Ben Jones, “Cooter” from the Dukes of Hazzard TV show.

In the second half of a two-part interview, Jim discusses how he discovered which type of job he belonged in, and shares his advice to those searching for the right career path. (Photo courtesy of brookenovak)

“I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life.”

Take-Aways

Sometimes the best part of an experience is what you don’t like: Jim learned as an undergraduate that he would not want to pursue a business career. Read his story about his military service: you don’t have to worry about having every job being a perfect fit for your skills.

Find your comfort zone: Jim has realized that he is more of a start-up person that one who maintains. Read about how this influenced the way he approached his job on the faculty of a major Seminary.

Realize that you won’t be in this job forever: Jim provides a powerful example of leadership in how he approaches any new role: he goes in knowing that he won’t stay there forever. Read how this changed his view when asked to start a 12-month-only job.

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: You said early in your life, when you were changing schools and trying things out, you knew what you liked and what you didn’t like. How did you know what you liked and what you didn’t like?

Jim: I was at Georgia Tech on an athletic scholarship. I took a battery of interest tests every year when I was trying to think about what I was going to do after school. What it does is compare your interests with the interests of other people in various fields. My lowest score was always the President of Manufacturing Concern. Here I was a Georgia Tech studying industrial management. I knew that profit maximization in the long run did not excite me. I did not want to make a lot of money. One of the things that I had to be careful about, because you have to look at the downside as well as the upside of things, is that you have to make enough money, but I didn’t want to see my job in life making as much money as I could. That pointed me in the direction of some fields where that was not the prime motivator. That is why I became a military officer and it was attractive. That’s why law, and I probably would have gone into public interest law, was attractive. That is why public administration was attractive. I didn’t see myself as being in the private profit sector.

“So for whatever reason, in terms of my interests being developed, I would be happier in those fields that majored in social relationships whose end product was not maximizing profit.”

Those tests also said I had interests with people in the social fields. I did rank high compared to attorneys, social workers, teachers; that sort of thing. So for whatever reason, in terms of my interests being developed, I would be happier in those fields that majored in social relationships whose end product was not maximizing profit. So I kind of knew that from the get-go.

“I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life.”

I discovered that what I liked to do most was where I had freedom of decision. Where I could be myself and I didn’t have to fit any kind of mold and I could even be outrageous if I wanted to. So as I look back, I was seeking those fields. In those places where there were stereotypes of those kinds of people, perhaps like being a pastor, I found out that one of the gifts that I brought to that situation in those circumstances was that I was not going to be put in that mold. I was not going to be a pastor that always dressed a certain way and I was very fortunate to have a life partner that thinks that way, too. I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life. What I found in the public sector is that the trust is the currency. You can disagree with folks and you can even not like folks, but the bottom line is being able to trust what somebody says. I think by and large in life, I have been somebody who has had some integrity about who I am. What you see is what you get.

Avocationist: Of all the jobs you have done, which were your favorites?

Jim: I think my favorite job was being on faculty at Columbia Seminary. The reason is because I was helping to form approaches to ministry for students, and in the long run, perhaps making some systemic changes in the church. Institutionally, my loyalty is still to the church and there are so many clergy who are not involved in public matters. I had suggested that we develop an academy through Faith in the City. Unfortunately, my experience in the church has often been that there is a lack of courage on the part of clergy. I would like to think that in those four years that I was at Columbia Seminary that I came in contact with clergy, particularly young clergy, and that I helped to be a bit more courageous. That probably was my favorite one. I also had a great deal of freedom.

“Even within the context of churches, I enjoy being a start-up person. So you could say that in some ways, I am a ‘social entrepreneur.’”

One of the things about freedom, as I look back and realize what I really had done and done well, is that I have always been a start-up person. I started the program for the denomination; the Peacemaking Program. I started the program at Columbia Seminary. The program here with the York County Democratic Party; it was in bad shape and they never had monthly meetings. So in essence, I started a party. Even within the context of churches, I enjoy being a start-up person. So you could say that in some ways, I am a “social entrepreneur.”

Avocationist: That is a good title. Now were there any transitions that you went through that were particularly difficult?

Jim: I think it was more difficult for other people who were wondering if I had lost my mind. No, I didn’t feel it.

Avocationist: When you think back over your career, were there any people who were particularly helpful to you at different points?

Jim: One of my coaches at Tech, Dean Griffin, and also Dean of Students, taught me a lesson that I still teach my runners: “You have won if you have beaten yourself.” Competition in life is not about other people, but it is about yourself. If you have been able to look at yourself and say that “I did it. I conquered whatever was the fear in me” or “I maximized what I wanted to maximize,” that is what it is about.

“It is better to have folks you don’t trust close to you than at a distance.”

Going back even further, a scoutmaster when I was 12 years old gave me a copy of the poem “If” by Rudyard Kipling, which is all about change. I still give that poem out to folks along the way when they are having a rough time. I think those were key people early on for me. I think Ben Jones was key in that he was a recovering alcoholic. Ben had really good BS detectors, which helped him to remain sober. With Ben I developed a pretty good BS detector. Through that I learned with Ben that you don’t go away from with whom you detect there is some BS going on, but you keep them close to you. It is better to have folks you don’t trust close to you than at a distance. What clergy for example tend to do, is that when they have a run-in with somebody in the church, they get away from them and that is not what you are supposed to do. You are supposed to keep them close to you. As Lyndon Johnson said, and this was his language, not mine, “It is better to have people inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.” So keeping folks close that you really don’t trust.

“Unfortunately, I didn’t have a lot of role models growing up or in the church.”

I guess those are the people who have been key. If you notice, there is not a pastor in that list. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a lot of role models growing up or in the church. I respected those folks and could see some of the same things that I respected in leadership in them, but personally, there was not a role model within the church as clergy that I could identify with.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what they are trying to do?

Jim: First of all, ask yourself what interests you. Secondly, I would say, “What are your skills?” Then I would say if you are looking toward change, look toward an area that interests you and an area where you can take skills that you have now and put over into that area. Thirdly, I would say to develop a support system that is quite apart from what you are engaged in as a career.

Avocationist: What do you mean by a "support system"?

Jim: Throughout my career, I continued my running and had been a part of a track club. In life, you have to have perspective and you have to have distance from what you are doing for life’s work or a portion of your life’s work. Those folks who are not able to see the possibility of change are those folks who are so enmeshed in what they are doing right now that they see no other options. So whatever you can do to surround yourself from people and places and things that are apart from what you do 9-5, then that will help you gain perspective when it is time to change what you do from 9-5, It also provides a consistency. No matter what I was doing in my life, I always went out and ran and I competed and that gave me something that was consistent.

Avocationist: I think I know the answer to this question; do you have any regrets?

Jim: No.

Avocationist: I am not surprised. How would you like to be remembered?

Jim: I would like to be remembered as a person who people, except for my wife, see as unpredictable. She knows me pretty well and she sees the way I really am. I have been known to show up places and say things that cause people to take a second look at me.

Avocationist: What do you think you will do next?

Jim: I see myself as continuing to help develop young runners. I will probably do the political party thing one more two-year term and then let somebody else step in. By the way, one of the things that you learn and that I have taught my students is that the first thing you should think about when you enter into a situation is what this place is going to be like after I leave. I find that if you have that feeling that “I am not going to be here forever,” when you step into it, that helps everybody in the long run. The party will be stronger because I will be gone. The distance runners will be stronger if they can inculcate within themselves some lessons. I may run for office if there is a place for me. I wouldn’t mind being on the City Council in Rock Hill. I am going to be a grandfather for the first time in the fall. My greatest priority probably will be that; it will be family. I am looking forward to those things.

Avocationist: Thank you for speaking with me. I think your advice will be very helpful to those reading it.

Jim: Yes, it maybe will help people. You know, when I was jumping out of airplanes, I asked the Jump Master if you ever get over the fear of leaving the door of the airplane and he said, “No, and if you do, don’t jump.” I think part of what keeps people from doing changes that need to happen is just plain old fear, and sometimes you need somebody who can help jumpstart you and get you out the door. You can see that people survive.