For most of my career, I was busy with work and the little remaining time was dedicated to my family. While this arrangement made me feel like I was taking care of everything, over time it left me feeling hollow.

Somehow I knew that the empty feeling was from not doing the things in life I was born to do.

When the pace would slow down a bit I would think up big plans for how I could fix my work or my life to fill that gap. But none of these dreams were practical – and deep down I didn’t believe that they would really fix things anyway.

Then one Saturday afternoon about ten years ago, I had a realization: I had been getting little signals all along about how to find what I was made to do. I just needed to follow my spark.

It happened when I took this photo of my daughter.

The little teardrop under Meg’s left eye took my breath away. I didn’t know why, but luckily I decided to do more photography.

I've since realized that it wasn’t because I was meant to only do photography.

But the photography tapped into the spark in me. It was the start of a great journey.

Following the photography led to amazing growth in my life. I met new friends. I took some beautiful photos of my daughters. I learned a lot about myself. Through more than a few ups and downs, photography taught me how to learn new things without going to school and without having to stop working or being a good dad and husband.

Through these and other paths, seeds were planted that helped shape what I get to do now: At a photography school in the mountains of North Carolina I shared a room with 70-year old Bob and learned how he managed a sane career at GE. In a photography group I learned about Photoshop but also met the blogger who inspired Avocationist.com.

You are not meant to feel like you are missing something inside.

When you start paying attention to your spark, that hollow ache will go away immediately. In its place will be energy and hope. And they lead to inspiration and ideas.

Here are some places to pay attention: What makes your heart beat faster? What stores always grab your eye? Whom do you admire?

Follow those impulses and find your spark.

Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this second of a two-part interview, Patricia talks about losing her first academic job, finding her path to an even better position and the life lessons that gave birth to her book Improv WISDOM.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What if you do everything by the book…and fail?

2. What would happen if I just acted like me?

3. Is the purpose of life just to be happy?

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: To get back to your career path, you were at St. Catherine’s School teaching and still taking classes: what happened next?

Patricia: I realized that I loved teaching and something in me said, “I think you might enjoy teaching at a higher level.” I was managing kids, but I know by nature that I am not a kid kind of person. I don’t have any children myself and I feel awkward with babies, toddlers, really any child under 15, but give me a high school or college-aged kid, and I am very good. Something said to me, “I think you want to keep teaching. You have found your niche here, but it could be great if you do it at the college level.”

“It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.”

So, after 2 years at St. Catherine’s I went back to graduate school to get a degree, because if I wanted to teach at the college level, I needed a Master’s Degree. I went to Wayne State University where I was part of their Hillberry Classic Repertory Company. It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.

Avocationist: Do you remember some of the roles you had?

Patricia: I was Helena in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, I was Calpernia in “Julius Caesar”, and I was Lysistrata in “Lysistrata”; they were classic Shakespearian roles. I was there three years and probably did about a dozen roles. I was a classic comedian. I was the loud, funny woman in the Shakespearian comedies. That was my prototype. I had a great time there.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

After I completed my Master’s Degree it led right into a fabulous job as an assistant professor at Denison University in Granville, OH. That is where my book starts and that is where I tell the story of being a college teacher where I am just happy as a clam. I had rented a lovely little house in a kind of “Gidget Goes to College” town in Ohio. I was happy and completely ready to settle in for the duration. What I began doing at that point was trying to please “The Man”. I was trying to do everything that I could to get tenure including sitting on all of the right committees and trying to figure out the political angles in the University. Basically what would look good on my resume? I really became obsessed with getting tenure because that would then mean, in my thinking, that I could just settle in and keep teaching without ever having to make a change. I liked it and I wanted to make it permanent.

“It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards.”

But I wasn’t really following any kind of sense of my dream or my wonder or my talent; I was just trying to figure out how to please the university establishment. I would advise anyone not to do that because it might work, and if it does work, it is not a good idea. It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards. It is not that the things that I did weren’t worthwhile, but what happened, of course, is that I did do everything right. I even got a university teaching award so I was sure I was set for life. Then the letter stating, “I am sorry we are not going to give you tenure,” and I think the wording was, “Your work lacks intellectual distinctiveness.” I thought, “Whoa! Hold on!” And then I paused and thought, “Wait a minute. Actually they are right.” I had not been following the kind of training that actually meant something to me. I had been doing things politically, or trying to please everyone and had not once spent a summer doing something that I thought was marvelous.

“I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life.”

So I didn’t get tenure and I got booted out of Denison. I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life. I didn’t know what I was going to do. But if you interview people that have ever been fired that it is often a seminal moment in their life and it turns out to be was the greatest thing that could have happened. It was certainly true in my case and I am very grateful that Denison did not keep me on because I don’t know… I would have probably died an alcoholic in a small apartment in Ohio or something from having stayed there.

“They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work.”

They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work. I started looking for either a theater job or a faculty job. In no time at all I got a really, REALLY good job as an assistant professorship at Penn State; a bigger school with a more interesting department.

“Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules.”

So I took the job and as I went I said to myself, “Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules. You are going to do what you believe you need to do and want to do and what follows your heart. That way if you don’t get tenure this time, you can’t look back and be sorry. To thine own self be true. Be true to your own heart - whatever that is- and if you get to stay at Penn State great, and if not, oh well. You can still feel good about yourself even if you don’t manage to hang on there.

“It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more.”

It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more. Penn State would have kept me forever, I think. It turned out that I was in a very agreeable situation. I was about to get tenure at Penn State when Stanford invited me to come and head their undergraduate acting program. All of a sudden when I started doing the things that I really love to do, the rest of the world respected it. So I got what I wanted, which was the respect of the academy, but not by trying to please them. I got it by following my own talents and heart.

Avocationist: The one thing I wanted to ask you that is related to that; in your book you talked about how you took up Tai Chi and you spent your summers traveling. What did that do for you in terms of your work, or did it?

Patricia: The thing was, instead of writing academic papers about theater or something, I just started trying these things. When I got to California I was really drawn into Eastern Philosophy, Religion, and Tai Chi. I went to Asia to study traditional Japanese art and the world of Eastern thought and practices. These included spiritual disciplines as well as Tai Chi and Yoga. All of these things were so interesting to me. I was like a kid in a candy shop in California taking workshops on crystal healing, studying Chakra this and Hindu that. I had so much fun looking at the world around me for experiences that could enrich my life. I have always been a philosophical thinker so I was thrilled when I got to California and there were more than just 5 Christian religions and a Jewish religion around. There was Taoism and 10 kinds of Buddhism and Hinduism and I became a Sufi for a while. I had a fabulous first 10 years in California trying things out and following my wonder.

Avocationist: How did that affect your acting and your teaching?

Patricia: It opened it up in a lot of ways. Often the best way to enhance the knowledge of your own subject is to look at it from another vantage point. So I began to see theater and acting from a much broader prospective and a more enhanced human dimension. Growing up in the rural south in Virginia, I didn’t know anything about things that were Asian and certainly didn’t know anything about Japan or Japanese people. I delved into a system called, “Constructive Living,” which is an American psychologist named David Reynolds’s take on two Japanese psychotherapies. I found his books as part of my search for trying new things. I have always been interested in psychology and I found a book called Constructive Living. I thought, “Wow! He is saying things that I believe completely and it is a really practical concept.” So as one of my adventures, I went off and studied with this teacher, David Reynolds. I became certified to be a Constructive Living™ instructor which added a dimension to my life that was not about teaching drama, but it was about psychology. The principles that are fundamental to my book really came from the juxtaposition of studying improvisational theater on the one hand and psychology on the other. These two things came together in me so my work with my book Improv WISDOMis an amalgamation of an Eastern philosophy/psychology and some Western ideas about creativity, theater, and improv.

“It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv.”

It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv. Low and behold, all of this was necessary to create the world view which I have now and allows me to see life as an improvisation which can be utilized by moving constructively forward; trying new things and not getting pushed around by your feelings.

Avocationist: This probably explains the broad appeal of your book because people can relate to it from different places.

Patricia: Yes. It was more like I timed the retirement when I knew that the book was going to be published. It took me a very long time to get a publisher. For all of 10 years I was sending drafts of a version of the book to various publishers and getting it sent back saying, “There are some interesting things here and you seem to have two books: you seem to have a manual on how to improvise, which is a drama book, and then you seem to have a self-help book here. Make up your mind on one or the other. Nobody is going to publish this kind of hybrid thing.” So it kept morphing.

At one point I thought, “I cannot seem to find a legitimate publisher so I will just publish it myself.” I have a friend in Canada who is a psychologist who had just published her own book on grieving and said, “I know this wonderful editor named Susan Mazie in British Columbia. You could probably hire her,” which I did. She was a private editor for me. We worked together and the goal of this was to help me self-publish it.

“You really will be able to find a publisher for this.”

We wrote for 4 months and I ended up spending a couple of thousand dollars; maybe $500/month for 4 months to have a personal editor who gave me feedback and good help with the book. When we got into a finished product, she said to me, “This is too good to self-publish. You really will be able to find a publisher for this. I am sure. Now that you have this, let’s see if we can’t put it into the pipeline again in a new way.”

“It was a dream and it was fabulous.”

What I found out at that point was that with a new version of the book the key thing was to write a book proposal. I did this when I got a New York agent. That was critical. This wonderful agent helped me draft the pitch for the book, which made it seem like people would want to publish it. When the proposal was done it went out to 35 major publishers in and around New York and 13 of them came back and expressed interest in wanting to buy the book. It was an amazing thing. I was ready to self-publish and all of a sudden we were having a bidding war. It was a dream and it was fabulous. That was in 2003. Fortunately, some of the publishers dropped out and two or three stayed until the end. The one that finally won the contract was the perfect publisher because the editor is a woman who publishes spiritual books and understood what this book was. She helped me with the writing and the conception of the book, so I had really, really brilliant help getting it to life. That was all happening and I knew I had a publication for spring of 2005.

“I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do..”

I had been winding down my teaching at Stanford and teaching only two quarters out of three so when it looked like the book was going to actually happen, I realized I was ready to officially enter retirement status at Stanford. I am so happy that I did. It has been perfect. I was extremely busy the first couple of years running around doing book appearances. I was the all university Honor’s Speaker at Southern Illinois University in 2007. I have had really nice gigs. I am not seeking them. I am at home and I have my website and the book is out there moving around. Every month or so I will get a call or get an email that says, “The book meant a lot to me and I want to do an interview” or “I would like to invite you to do something…” so I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do.

Avocationist: When you started writing your book, did you intend for it to be what it turned out to be for you, or did you have a different purpose in life?

Patricia: It was my deepest hope and dream that it would have a broad and wide readership, but I would never have believed in the outset that I would be able to accomplish it this way. I don’t have high ambitions. I really have had low hurdles for myself. I have never dreamed big. But there was a wish in my heart that before I die I could write a small, very slim book on philosophy that was based on what I do, that would also be helpful to people. To me the book is this funny wineskin of being an improv wisdom manual, but it says what I want to say. I have been trying to work on another book, but it is hard for me. I have said exactly all that I know is useful and I said it in the way that I planned; simple and clear. So why do I need to write another book? But on the other hand, people who have a message will often write another book teaching the same message, but in different way. I am hoping that I will be able to write some more and perhaps include more of my stories.

“I have had a really interesting life.”

I have had a really interesting life. I have been able to travel all over the globe and had some fascinating experiences. I think some of the crazy things that I have done and lessons I have learned in my life provide grist for another book.

Avocationist: Can you think of any stories in particular or experiences in particular that stand out for you?

Patricia: The lay-away story that I am working on doesn’t sound very exotic, but it has the lesson of that we need - the importance of working for something and building on it and paying for it in advance. There are other things. I did a trip around the world in 1982 where I was on my own for about 19 months; India, Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia and Japan. Traveling alone teaches you some amazing things about yourself. I spent time at a Tibetan Buddhist Monastery. I ran away from a meditation retreat in Japan; I literally jumped the fence and hitchhiked back to reality because it felt like I was in a cult. I have some interesting stories about trying things and then learning the lessons from the crazy things you do.

Avocationist: Where there any people particularly helpful to you in your career?

Patricia: I would have to say that David Reynolds is one of the two main influences that have been seminal in my adult life. He helped me form a clear understanding of how humans work and given me excellent knowledge about how to live a purposeful life. One of the principles in constructive living is to know your purpose, accept reality and accept your feelings. Then do what you need to do and always maintain an awareness of what you are receiving from others. Those four things are the core of my life philosophy. Know or consider your purpose, accept reality as it is; you don’t have to like it but accept it. Then what you need to do is notice how much you are receiving from others.

“I like doing rather than lecturing.”

Another major influence on the improv side is Keith Johnstone who is a Canadian. He is an educator/teacher/philosopher whose book Impro has been important in my understanding. I have always been an active person. I like doing rather than lecturing. I am not good at all as a keynote speaker, but I am really good in the classroom where I am hopping around and we are active together seeing what works.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are trying to figure out what to do next?

Patricia: I would say, if you’ve got an inkling of something that you love
or something that is calling to you I would not say, “Just follow your passion.” That is kind of a cliché. I would say keep your eyes open because there may be offers all around you that you are not interpreting as offers yet. So an improviser is looking for anything that might be a possibility. Be aware and try things. Take a step in some direction. That might mean volunteering or giving yourself away or going out of your comfort zone. It might be something as simple as, “Well I am not really good at hiking – I don’t like it and I am not an outdoors kind of person - so I don’t think I will go on that Sierra Club walk.” But you might do it for another person to accompany them and please them. Try new things and see where they lead. Don’t miss the chance to join the dance of living in the now.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

Patricia: I don’t think so. Not with anything I have done or not done.
Avocationist: You know of the people I talk to (and I look for people who have found a way to live their calling), I rarely have anybody say they have any regrets.
How would you like to be remembered?

Patricia: I would love to be remembered as a teacher and the other thing I would love to be remembered for is that my book would live on. Since I don’t have children and I don’t have the legacy of a blood family from my personal loins, I think of Improv WISDOMas my child out in the world. I hope it lives on and it is in the 5th printing now. There have never been huge numbers of the book, but I would love for it to keep circulating in the world and about 100 years from now somebody will have that book in a backpack; an old book, a classic from the 20th century, their little of manual of good advice that could help someone in the future. That would be a great legacy because I am proud of that book and would want it to live on. The best favor you can do is to tell people about it or recommend it.

Avocationist: I think you have really boiled down a lot of things that, in my own experience, that a lot of these things are fundamental to human happiness; they are almost counter-cultural, in the sense that they are not what our current society thinks of and so forth, so people need to understand the power of these simple ideas, and how fun it is; it is so fun.

Patricia: Finally the message is, enjoy the ride! Try to find joy in whatever you are doing. It is seeing that the pleasure in the ordinary is in our daily life. I think if you have ever hurt your leg and couldn’t walk for awhile and then you finally get back the ability to walk normally, you think about what a blessing normalcy is and it is a pleasure in being able to walk. If you can walk again, you really know how fabulous it is. I think most of us are walking through our lives right now with a lot of ordinary capabilities that we can walk and breathe and eat and have a roof over our heads. We can feed ourselves and we have the capacity to get information and read books. We are, as Reynolds says in his book, “Thirsty, swimming in the lake,” that we are in the midst of paradise right now, no matter what our circumstance. We are in paradise right now need to wake up and see that, appreciate our lives now and spend time not only in following our wonder, but also turning our attention to being helpful to others. That is finally where satisfaction comes, not just being an artist, because that might be it, but in some ways being useful to others.

Avocationist: That is the purpose part. What do you think you will do next?

Patricia: That is a really good question and I ask myself that a lot and I get ideas from time to time. One of the things that I might do is really seriously blogging. I have a blog that I have been a dilettante with; the blog is http://www.mymprovwisdom.blogspot. com and it has probably 20-30 posts the last couple of years, just book reviews and stuff I did. I think the world of blogging can be really helpful to a lot of folks and I might get myself into a weekly blog, so that is one possibility. The other thing is to probably put some serious effort into this book of stories of my life and get another book into the world. In the meantime I am getting ready to show up teaching a class for Continuing Studies. I am always happy to show up as a teacher from time to time.

Avocationist: Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Patricia: I don’t think so. You have asked wonderful questions and I am grateful for your comprehension of my book and my ideas, so you have made it easy.

Avocationist: My pleasure. When I work on my book I will share it with you because I think there is a big overlap. I am just looking at it through a different lens, but I think we are touching on some similar topics and your book has been really helpful as well.

Patricia: Let me know and I will be one of the first ones to buy a copy.

Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this first of a two-part interview, Patricia discusses her early career path and shares her belief that thinking “inside the box” can often lead to more creative solutions.

“Trust your weird instincts”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What can happen if you just do work you love

2. How a regular paycheck give you freedom

3. How a book can create a busy retirement

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Could you tell me what you do for a living now or how you spend most of your time now?

Patricia: I am retired now from full-time university teaching and consulting, which I did for 40 years as a university teacher. Since I started my retirement I have been almost busier than I was in my working career. Most people say that.

“I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.”

I wrote a book called Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up, which was published by Random House, Bell Tower Books in 2005 and I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that, if the book came out and the book did what I hoped it would do, it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.

What I am doing now is basically, every day, doing something that will help promote the book or try to get it into a wider readership. I do that by checking blogs and doing blog searches to see if anyone has mentioned the book, which happens fairly regularly.

“In March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview.”

As well as talking about it here and there, I have been really fortunate because the book has gotten really nice press, and in March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview. They mentioned the book and talked about Improv as a mindset that is being utilized by businesses. Having a big article in the NYT is huge.

“I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held.”

I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held. Remax asked me to be a keynote speaker about improvising in business. And then a couple of weeks later I was in Oakland, CA working with some social workers who are first call responders to youth in crises and I did an Improv workshop with them using improvisational thinking and mindsets to help deal with youth in crises.

“The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me.”

The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me. For example “ I got an email from a person in Virginia who trains psychotherapists and who uses the book as a training manual and gives them a copy when they graduate for psychotherapy training.
It is like, “Wow! Here is a book that is helping real estate agents and businessmen and social workers and psychotherapists and social workers and ministers with their sermons, and all sorts of things. Hurray!”

Avocationist: You worked on this book for a long time?

Patricia: Yes I did; 20 years. Literally I started over 20 years ago. I was teaching a class for adults in Stanford night school, their Continuing Studies Program, which is open to anyone. I taught classes that had 20-30 adults that were Silicon Valley computer geeks, librarians, retired people, people in transition; moms and whatnot. These are adults that would come for a 10-week course to learn how to improvise. People who took the Improv classes, said, “Golly! This is useful information. You ought to write a book!”

“The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.”

So I started writing in 1992 and it was then that the book began; actually it has been 20 years so that would take it back to 1988. I had a first version of the book in 1998. It was long process. The book has continued to morph from one thing into another. As I have grown older and learned more things, the ideas have been more refined; the gist of them has gotten clearer. The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.

Avocationist: If you could think of what is the core of the book after the 20 years of refining it, what would you say that is?

Patricia: I would say the book is basically how to find your voice; believing in yourself and trusting your own ideas and then checking them out. I think a lot of us have ideas about what we want or how we might want to live our lives, and sometimes we act on them and sometimes we don’t. I think the real message of Improv is ‘Wake up and pay attention to life; don’t just live in your head’. The attention is partly intellectual, but a lot of it is really visual and sensory. Move your attention out into the world around you; notice other people and notice what is happening. Deeply in the Improv message is to pay attention to life. Get out of your ruminating, planning, thinking, fearing brain and wake up to what is actually happening, and then, take a chance.

“Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens.”

One of the other maxims is: make mistakes and take a risk. The improviser doesn’t know how his actions are going to turn out. You can’t think into the future and you are not supposed to. You just stay in the present and try something. The real message is to try and take a step. Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens. Then you have data. Once you have taken a step in any direction, you have more data about whether you like that direction or not and whether there is a path there. I think this can apply to the thing that you are studying, which is how to help turn around a life that might be not going in the direction that one wants or is not really fulfilling. An example of that might be, if there is something that you are passionate about, something that you love that may be in the avocational area of your own existence, find ways to devote more time to that. Maybe you could volunteer to give yourself a way of doing it. Some of these things can lead into a wage-earning activity. You might create a new job that may not even exist.

Avocationist: I agree with that. As you follow your instincts, you will find other people that like these same things you do and you can form your own support group of people that are like you with the same interest.

Patricia: The world is full of amazing potential and it is not so much even thinking outside the box, which is the common terminology for thinking creatively, but I would suggest you think inside the box with clearer eyes, and that means looking at what is really obvious to you. Write what is obvious to you and do the thing that you are very good at or that pulls your attention and draws you. I think we are all born naturally with interests and talents and proclivities, if given a chance to try out various things. I am always suggesting people follow their wonder or their passion or something that seems interesting to them, no matter how illogical it may be.

“Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later.”

I do believe that everything we do is grist for the mill and becomes part of the mix of who we are. It doesn’t have to be logical. Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later. Trust your weird instincts.

Avocationist: I agree with that and have experienced that as well. I got back into a hobby of photography and found a group locally in Charlotte. A speaker came one time to talk about what I thought was going to be the subject of lighting, but he ended up talking about his blog and that led me to start this blog. It turned out to be a different thing I was interested in and it all started because of exploring one thing that I was interested in, photography, and had nothing to do with my work or anything else.
Take me back to how your career started.

Patricia: I was a philosophy major in college – philosophy and Greek studies – real practical things. I was the first in my family to go to college, and I put myself through college working in a Thom McCann Shoe Store and living at home. I loved going to college. I loved thinking and studying and was not even considering a job or a career or anything. I finished college and there I was with my philosophy degree in one hand and my Greek studies in the other and thought, “Well, what job is suitable for you?” I looked around and nobody was really hiring philosophy majors or Greek study majors. I was not suited for anything.

“Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.”

Instead of just giving up at that point, I thought, “Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.” I am trying to figure out how on earth I managed. I took a job as a waitress just to earn my keep and I was still living at home for that time. I followed my wonder at a critical point and I started taking classes at another college in theater, which was hardly a logical choice. Theatre classes were not likely to lead to any gainful employment, if you think about it.

Avocationist: Had you acted before, like back in high school?

Patricia: Yes, a little bit in high school and then while I was back in college studying philosophy, I got into the drama group and I was in plays. That is what I loved doing, but I wasn’t a major or anything. So I thought, “I would really like to study this.” Again, not thinking it was going to lead to any career because I was intelligent enough to know that you are not going to earn a living as an actor, for heaven’s sake.

“The head of the department said, ‘You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher’”

Then, one semester into classes at Richmond Professional Institute the head of the department said, “You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher, and actually St. Catherine’s School for Girls is a private Episcopal school here that is looking for a drama teacher. If you would like, I will put your name up for that because I think you would be really good for in that position.”

“I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.”

So this amazing thing happened after only one semester of formally studying drama: I found myself the head of the drama program at St. Catherine’s School for Girls, which was fabulous. I was living as a resident teacher in Richmond and had an apartment and got my food at the school and had the princely salary of $3500/ per year plus room and board. This was like in 1963 and I was a drama teacher, and I loved it! I had fallen into this without really even trying. I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.

Avocationist: What did you think the head of the department saw in you that made him think that you would be a good teacher?

Patricia: I don’t know. I think he was right because I think deep in my soul more than anything else, I am a teacher. It didn’t matter that it was drama and it is not that what he saw in me was an actress or a director, he saw in me someone who loved to communicate about education. That has been true throughout my life and I have always been and have the soul of a teacher, but I never thought about teaching or being a high school teacher. So he saw that… I think part of it is intellectual; a kind of capacity for thinking in a certain way, good communication skills and the like. The other thing that really suits me to be a teacher is that I like a salary and a regular job. I would be a really lousy business person trying month by month to figure out how to get to the next month. I would be a bad boss for myself. I love having a regular paycheck and being able to figure out how to live on what I was bringing in, which I have always been able to do. I am very sensible at finance and even on $3500/year that first year, I saved $800 and was able to travel to England. Isn’t that something? Saving is another one of those things - I don’t write about this in the book - but I think it is something I learned at an early age and I am so proud of how I manage money. I am a good saver and I never overspend. I think part of the problem that the world is in today is that we have started believing that all you need is a credit card and the world can be yours. Instant gratification is always around with purchases and money and it has become culturally widespread. I was thinking about how to write my next book called Bring Back Lay-Away!

Avocationist: I have actually seen that some stores are doing that this year.

Patricia: I started writing an article a year ago that is about managing your life by being really careful about saving and putting things away for the future. That is another secret of my success, that no matter what I earned, even when it was $3500/year, I saved $800 of that. I am a saver so that allows me to take risks if I have created some kind of small cushion for myself. I am not fearful that if I don’t do “X”, then I am not going to be able to feed my family. So by looking at whatever situation you are in and being realistic about your money, saving carefully, and how you spend is part of the mix. I think by being able to talk about these other philosophical issues - taking a risk and following your wonder is possible if you have your rent paid.

Avocationist: Another thing that occurs to me about what you are saying is that, a lot of times if you have constraints that you put on yourself and on your spending, it helps you to be more creative and conscientious about what you do. I remember one year my wife and I decided that because we had bought a new house and we didn’t have a lot of extra money that we would just spend $10 on each other for Christmas gifts that year. I found a little $9.95 photo album and put together this really nice gift for her that was probably more meaningful than if I had spent a lot more money. Also I had a great time doing it. Those are the sorts of things that you don’t do if you can buy anything you want.

Patricia: That is true and I think that is at the heart of the message of the book plus it involves the value of restraint and limits in life because it forces us to be more creative. In the world we live in today we often have more money than we need, and we use that money more than we use thoughtfulness. We all know, and there is a lot of data that shows prosperity does not bring happiness in itself, that there are other human values that are going to make the difference (time with our community and family, getting away from the television, and eating healthy food, for example are simple things that bring us happiness).

Avocationist: Yes; and those things don’t necessarily cost anything at all.

In this interview, Edna Bacon shares her latest career transition - she has come full-circle and is again creating ceramic art. And she is taking the opportunities to exhibit in galleries that she passed up early in her career. Edna talks about how her friendships with other artists have brought these new experiences.

Avocationist spoke to her in March 2008. The last of three-parts.

“I think you are always transitioning if you are not dead.”

Sound Bites

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Where are you now with your career and your life? Are in a stable place or are you in a transition?

Edna: I think you are always transitioning if you are not dead. I guess some of it is deciding at this point, how much work do I want to do, and asking yourself questions like, “Do I want to work on Friday?” And if I don’t want to work on Friday, how does that affect what I do?

Avocationist: Now that you have come around the circle from the pottery back to the art, how do you feel now about art?

Edna: Now it is about doing the art. I think things happen when you are doing it, like the show I did down at Studio Swan -- it is just amazing when you are in there working, the things that come to you, or the things that happen that you can’t predict that give you more ideas.

Avocationist: If you had any advice for your grandkids about life and changes, what would you tell them?

Edna: I would say learn as much about yourself as you can and be aware of what you love to do. Sometimes it is a funny combination of needing to do things for whatever reason, particularly for money to earn and living, and wondering how you can make that, doing what you love, fit into that. I guess I would just suggest following rabbit trails, no matter how crazy they seem on some level. You don’t have to throw everything overboard to do it. Ask “What can I do that feeds me?” I don’t think that it can always become your career, but you don’t know.

I guess another thing is deciding what you need money-wise and what you don’t need, and how that dictates what you do. My husband was the main money-earner so I had the freedom, but I also had the children, though it did give me certain freedom too to not be the main source of income. Looking back on it I think, “Why didn’t I just do a full-time job and make money?” But it didn’t seem that it was the way it worked.

Avocationist: You couldn’t have done all the travel and seen so much of your kids.

Edna: I know. Like some women who are younger than I am -- I just look at how driven they are, job-wise, and it really is a difference. Of course, they came along in a time when women could “do whatever they wanted to do,” and went the business route, but I guess they must find that fulfilling in some way too, and they do have rich lives. It is just different from what I did. When I came along, I was just a little bit ahead of the women’s movement by a few years. You married and you had children and I really, in some ways, feel that I am very fortunate that I did that and was happy doing that, and then said, “OK, what now?” instead of having a career and then stepping back from it and figuring out how to fit children into that. It was a real luxury to have children and have people around who were doing the same thing. I think that is half of it too.

Avocationist: I know many women who talk about wanting to have kids and stay home with them while doing something on the side – they all believe they can do many things.

Edna: Yes, but perhaps not all at once. I know the daughter of a friend who chose anesthesiology because that was something that would be a set schedule, and she could probably do it part-time. People talk about selling out, and it really isn’t, in a way. It is a way to have that time with children that can be frustrating as well as wonderful. I am really glad I did that.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets about any of the choices you have made?

Edna: This is probably true of many women, but I don’t think I have ever taken myself seriously enough or what I do seriously enough. It is the other side of the coin that we are talking about. I let other things get in the way, and some of it was appropriate and some of it was not appropriate. I think with everything I have done, I have worked it around other things.

"People suggested things and it was too overwhelming to even think about."

I do have another regret; when I was first doing pottery and we had set up a tent at the Piedmont Art Show, the woman who owned the Signature Shop wanted me to bring pots by for her to see, and I could never get them made to take. That is a regret; that I didn’t follow through. There are probably other instances like that when people suggested things and it was too overwhelming to even think about.

Avocationist: Do you think you weren’t ready for it yet?

Edna: Yes.

Avocationist: Isn’t that interesting that it has come back around and you are doing gallery shows now?

Edna: I know, and that is through relationships, actually. It is through knowing that friends like my work and they like me. Someone used to tell me, “I don’t know whether people buy your pots because they like the pots or they like you.” Actually, when I buy art, I really like knowing the person I am buying it from. That is a huge part of my life.

Avocationist: That is something we haven’t talked about yet, but which I think is such an important part of you – all your great relationships with people. Everyone seems to universally love you.

Edna: That is part of the not taking myself seriously. I do have a lot of really good friends, and that has been very important.

Avocationist: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Edna: I guess another thing that I am really aware of is the times I have grown up in, because that is something that has to affect us. I was born right before World War II and I grew up in the ‘50s and finished college in 1961. Having lived during a basically peaceful and prosperous time in the United States has to be part of this, too; I had choices that I might not have had at another time.

Like my grandmother who also loved school, but her father died when she was 14 and she had to go to work; that was the end of school for her. She became an expert seamstress and tailor, which also stopped when she married, I imagine, except that she sewed for her family. Daddy, who didn’t have the college education but worked hard and worked smart saw to it that we all went to the schools we wanted to go to. It is funny that growing up, there was never much talk about money. I guess the money thing is a weird thing in my life, too. I don’t like money, but I like the result of money. You always knew that you had money for what you needed and a lot of what you wanted to do. I knew that there would be money for college, and we all knew that we would finish college. That was never spoken or said to us. We all knew that we would go to college and finish, but there was never any sense of wanting something and expressing that if it was outside the realm of what was provided.

"It has been a source of relationships with people who have challenged and encouraged me throughout my life."

Another thing that’s been a constant in my life is my Christian faith and community. It has been a source of relationships with people who have challenged and encouraged me throughout my life.

Avocationist: My last question is how would you like to be remembered?

Edna: I would like to be remembered as a good friend and as an artist and as someone who takes herself seriously, and I have a few years left to do that.

Avocationist: I don’t know if I ever told you this, but you are my career hero.

Edna: Really?

Avocationist: I think I can do all of these crazy things that I think I can do because of the fact that when you were 50 you went back to school to do something totally different. That is why I wanted to interview you.

Edna: Thank you. You know, a mentor would be a good thing to be remembered as, too. Thank you! That is wonderful.

She graduated college and became a wife and mother, but at a time when women realized they could do anything, felt like something was missing. After returning to school for an art degree and becoming a ceramic artist, she began to utilize her skills by helping cancer patients cope with their emotions through art therapy.

“I was doing just what I wanted to do.”

The Avocationist spoke with her in March 2008. The first of three parts.

Sound Bites:

Take-Aways:

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Edna, tell me what you do for a living.

Edna: I work part-time as an art therapist; at this point, mainly with people who have cancer or have had cancer, along with their families. I also work as a ceramic artist; a potter, making functional and sculptural objects.

Avocationist: How did you find out about art therapy? It is not very common.

Edna: I knew someone who was an art therapist, and after I had been doing pottery for a while, I felt kind of stuck with what I was doing. I felt that I was doing the same thing over and over again and I thought, “Maybe I will go and see Elizabeth and see if doing some art therapy would unstick my creativity.” It turned out that it stuck a lot of other places too, and that way of working was very helpful. It gave me words where I didn’t have words.

Avocationist: What do you think it is about you that makes you good at this job?

"I am curious about people, and I like hearing people's stories."

Edna: I am curious about people, and I like hearing people’s stories. Growing up in the South, we would get together with family and there were always these stories being told and retold, so I think I am curious about people, and I also have faith in people’s ability to make changes they need to make. I don’t have the answers, but I can help them tap into what they need to do or what they know already. I think it is more about helping people discover that. I don’t think it is very helpful to just map it out for them, even though you think you may know the answer.

Avocationist: You got started in art by going back to school; was there a moment when you decided, “I have to do this?” Was there a change in your life?

Edna: There definitely was. I had grown up, gone to school, graduated from college, worked for a while, married and had children, and it was like I had done everything. I was 32 or a little bit older. I started asking the question “Is this all there is?”

"I have done everything that I expected to do, but there are a lot of years left."

I think around the age of 32 is a time when women ask that question. Men, a lot of times, talk about the mid-life crisis at 40, but I think for women it comes earlier, because either you have had a career and at that age you think, “If I am going to have a family, I need to be doing something about that,” or if you have done it the other way, and you realize the kids are not going to be here forever, and I have done everything that I expected to do, but there are a lot of years left. What am I going to do?

Avocationist: Do you remember the process you went through? Were there any events in particular that stand out from that transition time?

Edna: It was the “Is this all there is?” kind of thing. I guess it was about taking myself more seriously in what I wanted to do and what would be meaningful to do.

Avocationist: How did you go about figuring out what would be meaningful? Was it a process?

Edna: No; it was taking the next step and knowing that I liked working with my hands and knowing that I felt like I didn’t know anything about Art or how to create on my own.

Avocationist: You had three little kids when you were going back to school – was that difficult?

Edna: Not for me. It was really one of the first times that I felt like I lost myself in what I did. I don’t think I ever did that in college. In college, I got the work done, but there was not that deep pleasure that doing the art was, and particularly with the pottery. Sometimes when my husband was home on weekends, I would go to the studio and I could just lose track of time. I just remember sitting in class, particularly the art history class, thinking about how much I knew then that I didn’t know when I was 18 and what a waste college was when I was 18 years old, except I was really glad I didn’t have to take the things that I really didn’t care about taking. I was doing just what I wanted to do and didn’t have the social stuff going on. It was just mainly pure pleasure.

Next: Edna drives her Mom "crazy" by going back to school at age 50.