Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this second of a two-part interview, Patricia talks about losing her first academic job, finding her path to an even better position and the life lessons that gave birth to her book Improv WISDOM.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What if you do everything by the book…and fail?

2. What would happen if I just acted like me?

3. Is the purpose of life just to be happy?

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: To get back to your career path, you were at St. Catherine’s School teaching and still taking classes: what happened next?

Patricia: I realized that I loved teaching and something in me said, “I think you might enjoy teaching at a higher level.” I was managing kids, but I know by nature that I am not a kid kind of person. I don’t have any children myself and I feel awkward with babies, toddlers, really any child under 15, but give me a high school or college-aged kid, and I am very good. Something said to me, “I think you want to keep teaching. You have found your niche here, but it could be great if you do it at the college level.”

“It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.”

So, after 2 years at St. Catherine’s I went back to graduate school to get a degree, because if I wanted to teach at the college level, I needed a Master’s Degree. I went to Wayne State University where I was part of their Hillberry Classic Repertory Company. It was funny because I got to earn my way through graduate school by acting in their rep company.

Avocationist: Do you remember some of the roles you had?

Patricia: I was Helena in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, I was Calpernia in “Julius Caesar”, and I was Lysistrata in “Lysistrata”; they were classic Shakespearian roles. I was there three years and probably did about a dozen roles. I was a classic comedian. I was the loud, funny woman in the Shakespearian comedies. That was my prototype. I had a great time there.

“What I began doing at that point was trying to please ‘The Man’.”

After I completed my Master’s Degree it led right into a fabulous job as an assistant professor at Denison University in Granville, OH. That is where my book starts and that is where I tell the story of being a college teacher where I am just happy as a clam. I had rented a lovely little house in a kind of “Gidget Goes to College” town in Ohio. I was happy and completely ready to settle in for the duration. What I began doing at that point was trying to please “The Man”. I was trying to do everything that I could to get tenure including sitting on all of the right committees and trying to figure out the political angles in the University. Basically what would look good on my resume? I really became obsessed with getting tenure because that would then mean, in my thinking, that I could just settle in and keep teaching without ever having to make a change. I liked it and I wanted to make it permanent.

“It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards.”

But I wasn’t really following any kind of sense of my dream or my wonder or my talent; I was just trying to figure out how to please the university establishment. I would advise anyone not to do that because it might work, and if it does work, it is not a good idea. It is not good for you to try to live your life by somebody else’s standards. It is not that the things that I did weren’t worthwhile, but what happened, of course, is that I did do everything right. I even got a university teaching award so I was sure I was set for life. Then the letter stating, “I am sorry we are not going to give you tenure,” and I think the wording was, “Your work lacks intellectual distinctiveness.” I thought, “Whoa! Hold on!” And then I paused and thought, “Wait a minute. Actually they are right.” I had not been following the kind of training that actually meant something to me. I had been doing things politically, or trying to please everyone and had not once spent a summer doing something that I thought was marvelous.

“I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life.”

So I didn’t get tenure and I got booted out of Denison. I thought at one point that my career was probably over in academic life. I didn’t know what I was going to do. But if you interview people that have ever been fired that it is often a seminal moment in their life and it turns out to be was the greatest thing that could have happened. It was certainly true in my case and I am very grateful that Denison did not keep me on because I don’t know… I would have probably died an alcoholic in a small apartment in Ohio or something from having stayed there.

“They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work.”

They kicked me out and lo and behold I was out in the world looking for work. I started looking for either a theater job or a faculty job. In no time at all I got a really, REALLY good job as an assistant professorship at Penn State; a bigger school with a more interesting department.

“Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules.”

So I took the job and as I went I said to myself, “Learn this lesson well. You can go back into academia but you are never going to just try to follow the rules. You are going to do what you believe you need to do and want to do and what follows your heart. That way if you don’t get tenure this time, you can’t look back and be sorry. To thine own self be true. Be true to your own heart - whatever that is- and if you get to stay at Penn State great, and if not, oh well. You can still feel good about yourself even if you don’t manage to hang on there.

“It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more.”

It’s interesting because when you start stepping to your own drum, the world respects you more. Penn State would have kept me forever, I think. It turned out that I was in a very agreeable situation. I was about to get tenure at Penn State when Stanford invited me to come and head their undergraduate acting program. All of a sudden when I started doing the things that I really love to do, the rest of the world respected it. So I got what I wanted, which was the respect of the academy, but not by trying to please them. I got it by following my own talents and heart.

Avocationist: The one thing I wanted to ask you that is related to that; in your book you talked about how you took up Tai Chi and you spent your summers traveling. What did that do for you in terms of your work, or did it?

Patricia: The thing was, instead of writing academic papers about theater or something, I just started trying these things. When I got to California I was really drawn into Eastern Philosophy, Religion, and Tai Chi. I went to Asia to study traditional Japanese art and the world of Eastern thought and practices. These included spiritual disciplines as well as Tai Chi and Yoga. All of these things were so interesting to me. I was like a kid in a candy shop in California taking workshops on crystal healing, studying Chakra this and Hindu that. I had so much fun looking at the world around me for experiences that could enrich my life. I have always been a philosophical thinker so I was thrilled when I got to California and there were more than just 5 Christian religions and a Jewish religion around. There was Taoism and 10 kinds of Buddhism and Hinduism and I became a Sufi for a while. I had a fabulous first 10 years in California trying things out and following my wonder.

Avocationist: How did that affect your acting and your teaching?

Patricia: It opened it up in a lot of ways. Often the best way to enhance the knowledge of your own subject is to look at it from another vantage point. So I began to see theater and acting from a much broader prospective and a more enhanced human dimension. Growing up in the rural south in Virginia, I didn’t know anything about things that were Asian and certainly didn’t know anything about Japan or Japanese people. I delved into a system called, “Constructive Living,” which is an American psychologist named David Reynolds’s take on two Japanese psychotherapies. I found his books as part of my search for trying new things. I have always been interested in psychology and I found a book called Constructive Living. I thought, “Wow! He is saying things that I believe completely and it is a really practical concept.” So as one of my adventures, I went off and studied with this teacher, David Reynolds. I became certified to be a Constructive Living™ instructor which added a dimension to my life that was not about teaching drama, but it was about psychology. The principles that are fundamental to my book really came from the juxtaposition of studying improvisational theater on the one hand and psychology on the other. These two things came together in me so my work with my book Improv WISDOMis an amalgamation of an Eastern philosophy/psychology and some Western ideas about creativity, theater, and improv.

“It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv.”

It would seem odd on the one hand to be studying with a Japanese psychologist and then on the other hand studying improv. Low and behold, all of this was necessary to create the world view which I have now and allows me to see life as an improvisation which can be utilized by moving constructively forward; trying new things and not getting pushed around by your feelings.

Avocationist: This probably explains the broad appeal of your book because people can relate to it from different places.

Patricia: Yes. It was more like I timed the retirement when I knew that the book was going to be published. It took me a very long time to get a publisher. For all of 10 years I was sending drafts of a version of the book to various publishers and getting it sent back saying, “There are some interesting things here and you seem to have two books: you seem to have a manual on how to improvise, which is a drama book, and then you seem to have a self-help book here. Make up your mind on one or the other. Nobody is going to publish this kind of hybrid thing.” So it kept morphing.

At one point I thought, “I cannot seem to find a legitimate publisher so I will just publish it myself.” I have a friend in Canada who is a psychologist who had just published her own book on grieving and said, “I know this wonderful editor named Susan Mazie in British Columbia. You could probably hire her,” which I did. She was a private editor for me. We worked together and the goal of this was to help me self-publish it.

“You really will be able to find a publisher for this.”

We wrote for 4 months and I ended up spending a couple of thousand dollars; maybe $500/month for 4 months to have a personal editor who gave me feedback and good help with the book. When we got into a finished product, she said to me, “This is too good to self-publish. You really will be able to find a publisher for this. I am sure. Now that you have this, let’s see if we can’t put it into the pipeline again in a new way.”

“It was a dream and it was fabulous.”

What I found out at that point was that with a new version of the book the key thing was to write a book proposal. I did this when I got a New York agent. That was critical. This wonderful agent helped me draft the pitch for the book, which made it seem like people would want to publish it. When the proposal was done it went out to 35 major publishers in and around New York and 13 of them came back and expressed interest in wanting to buy the book. It was an amazing thing. I was ready to self-publish and all of a sudden we were having a bidding war. It was a dream and it was fabulous. That was in 2003. Fortunately, some of the publishers dropped out and two or three stayed until the end. The one that finally won the contract was the perfect publisher because the editor is a woman who publishes spiritual books and understood what this book was. She helped me with the writing and the conception of the book, so I had really, really brilliant help getting it to life. That was all happening and I knew I had a publication for spring of 2005.

“I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do..”

I had been winding down my teaching at Stanford and teaching only two quarters out of three so when it looked like the book was going to actually happen, I realized I was ready to officially enter retirement status at Stanford. I am so happy that I did. It has been perfect. I was extremely busy the first couple of years running around doing book appearances. I was the all university Honor’s Speaker at Southern Illinois University in 2007. I have had really nice gigs. I am not seeking them. I am at home and I have my website and the book is out there moving around. Every month or so I will get a call or get an email that says, “The book meant a lot to me and I want to do an interview” or “I would like to invite you to do something…” so I am in this wonderfully agreeable situation where I am sitting back waiting for reality to bring me things to do.

Avocationist: When you started writing your book, did you intend for it to be what it turned out to be for you, or did you have a different purpose in life?

Patricia: It was my deepest hope and dream that it would have a broad and wide readership, but I would never have believed in the outset that I would be able to accomplish it this way. I don’t have high ambitions. I really have had low hurdles for myself. I have never dreamed big. But there was a wish in my heart that before I die I could write a small, very slim book on philosophy that was based on what I do, that would also be helpful to people. To me the book is this funny wineskin of being an improv wisdom manual, but it says what I want to say. I have been trying to work on another book, but it is hard for me. I have said exactly all that I know is useful and I said it in the way that I planned; simple and clear. So why do I need to write another book? But on the other hand, people who have a message will often write another book teaching the same message, but in different way. I am hoping that I will be able to write some more and perhaps include more of my stories.

“I have had a really interesting life.”

I have had a really interesting life. I have been able to travel all over the globe and had some fascinating experiences. I think some of the crazy things that I have done and lessons I have learned in my life provide grist for another book.

Avocationist: Can you think of any stories in particular or experiences in particular that stand out for you?

Patricia: The lay-away story that I am working on doesn’t sound very exotic, but it has the lesson of that we need - the importance of working for something and building on it and paying for it in advance. There are other things. I did a trip around the world in 1982 where I was on my own for about 19 months; India, Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia and Japan. Traveling alone teaches you some amazing things about yourself. I spent time at a Tibetan Buddhist Monastery. I ran away from a meditation retreat in Japan; I literally jumped the fence and hitchhiked back to reality because it felt like I was in a cult. I have some interesting stories about trying things and then learning the lessons from the crazy things you do.

Avocationist: Where there any people particularly helpful to you in your career?

Patricia: I would have to say that David Reynolds is one of the two main influences that have been seminal in my adult life. He helped me form a clear understanding of how humans work and given me excellent knowledge about how to live a purposeful life. One of the principles in constructive living is to know your purpose, accept reality and accept your feelings. Then do what you need to do and always maintain an awareness of what you are receiving from others. Those four things are the core of my life philosophy. Know or consider your purpose, accept reality as it is; you don’t have to like it but accept it. Then what you need to do is notice how much you are receiving from others.

“I like doing rather than lecturing.”

Another major influence on the improv side is Keith Johnstone who is a Canadian. He is an educator/teacher/philosopher whose book Impro has been important in my understanding. I have always been an active person. I like doing rather than lecturing. I am not good at all as a keynote speaker, but I am really good in the classroom where I am hopping around and we are active together seeing what works.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are trying to figure out what to do next?

Patricia: I would say, if you’ve got an inkling of something that you love
or something that is calling to you I would not say, “Just follow your passion.” That is kind of a cliché. I would say keep your eyes open because there may be offers all around you that you are not interpreting as offers yet. So an improviser is looking for anything that might be a possibility. Be aware and try things. Take a step in some direction. That might mean volunteering or giving yourself away or going out of your comfort zone. It might be something as simple as, “Well I am not really good at hiking – I don’t like it and I am not an outdoors kind of person - so I don’t think I will go on that Sierra Club walk.” But you might do it for another person to accompany them and please them. Try new things and see where they lead. Don’t miss the chance to join the dance of living in the now.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

Patricia: I don’t think so. Not with anything I have done or not done.
Avocationist: You know of the people I talk to (and I look for people who have found a way to live their calling), I rarely have anybody say they have any regrets.
How would you like to be remembered?

Patricia: I would love to be remembered as a teacher and the other thing I would love to be remembered for is that my book would live on. Since I don’t have children and I don’t have the legacy of a blood family from my personal loins, I think of Improv WISDOMas my child out in the world. I hope it lives on and it is in the 5th printing now. There have never been huge numbers of the book, but I would love for it to keep circulating in the world and about 100 years from now somebody will have that book in a backpack; an old book, a classic from the 20th century, their little of manual of good advice that could help someone in the future. That would be a great legacy because I am proud of that book and would want it to live on. The best favor you can do is to tell people about it or recommend it.

Avocationist: I think you have really boiled down a lot of things that, in my own experience, that a lot of these things are fundamental to human happiness; they are almost counter-cultural, in the sense that they are not what our current society thinks of and so forth, so people need to understand the power of these simple ideas, and how fun it is; it is so fun.

Patricia: Finally the message is, enjoy the ride! Try to find joy in whatever you are doing. It is seeing that the pleasure in the ordinary is in our daily life. I think if you have ever hurt your leg and couldn’t walk for awhile and then you finally get back the ability to walk normally, you think about what a blessing normalcy is and it is a pleasure in being able to walk. If you can walk again, you really know how fabulous it is. I think most of us are walking through our lives right now with a lot of ordinary capabilities that we can walk and breathe and eat and have a roof over our heads. We can feed ourselves and we have the capacity to get information and read books. We are, as Reynolds says in his book, “Thirsty, swimming in the lake,” that we are in the midst of paradise right now, no matter what our circumstance. We are in paradise right now need to wake up and see that, appreciate our lives now and spend time not only in following our wonder, but also turning our attention to being helpful to others. That is finally where satisfaction comes, not just being an artist, because that might be it, but in some ways being useful to others.

Avocationist: That is the purpose part. What do you think you will do next?

Patricia: That is a really good question and I ask myself that a lot and I get ideas from time to time. One of the things that I might do is really seriously blogging. I have a blog that I have been a dilettante with; the blog is http://www.mymprovwisdom.blogspot. com and it has probably 20-30 posts the last couple of years, just book reviews and stuff I did. I think the world of blogging can be really helpful to a lot of folks and I might get myself into a weekly blog, so that is one possibility. The other thing is to probably put some serious effort into this book of stories of my life and get another book into the world. In the meantime I am getting ready to show up teaching a class for Continuing Studies. I am always happy to show up as a teacher from time to time.

Avocationist: Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Patricia: I don’t think so. You have asked wonderful questions and I am grateful for your comprehension of my book and my ideas, so you have made it easy.

Avocationist: My pleasure. When I work on my book I will share it with you because I think there is a big overlap. I am just looking at it through a different lens, but I think we are touching on some similar topics and your book has been really helpful as well.

Patricia: Let me know and I will be one of the first ones to buy a copy.

Patricia Ryan Madson was Head of Stanford University’s Undergraduate Acting Program and has taught a generation of students in all disciplines how they can bring the lessons of Improv Theatre into their lives. She has written a fantastic book that summarizes this philosophy: Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up.

In her 20s, when she missed out on tenure in her first University job – in spite of doing “all the right things” – she decided to focus instead on what she loved. Her explorations of Eastern Philosophy and spiritual practices informed her work in theatre and led to her success at Stanford, including being awarded the University’s highest teaching prize, the Lloyd W. Dinkelspiel Award for outstanding contribution to undergraduate education.

In this first of a two-part interview, Patricia discusses her early career path and shares her belief that thinking “inside the box” can often lead to more creative solutions.

“Trust your weird instincts”

Read on to find Patricia’s thoughts on:

1. What can happen if you just do work you love

2. How a regular paycheck give you freedom

3. How a book can create a busy retirement

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Could you tell me what you do for a living now or how you spend most of your time now?

Patricia: I am retired now from full-time university teaching and consulting, which I did for 40 years as a university teacher. Since I started my retirement I have been almost busier than I was in my working career. Most people say that.

“I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.”

I wrote a book called Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up, which was published by Random House, Bell Tower Books in 2005 and I timed the book with my retiring from full-time teaching with the thought that, if the book came out and the book did what I hoped it would do, it would be able to help to a wide cross-section of folks.

What I am doing now is basically, every day, doing something that will help promote the book or try to get it into a wider readership. I do that by checking blogs and doing blog searches to see if anyone has mentioned the book, which happens fairly regularly.

“In March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview.”

As well as talking about it here and there, I have been really fortunate because the book has gotten really nice press, and in March of this past year, the Sunday New York Times business section did a huge, full page article on Improv in Business, which featured me with an interview. They mentioned the book and talked about Improv as a mindset that is being utilized by businesses. Having a big article in the NYT is huge.

“I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held.”

I have been invited to do some really diverse sorts of things. I just got back from Mexico where the annual convention of Remax Realtors was held. Remax asked me to be a keynote speaker about improvising in business. And then a couple of weeks later I was in Oakland, CA working with some social workers who are first call responders to youth in crises and I did an Improv workshop with them using improvisational thinking and mindsets to help deal with youth in crises.

“The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me.”

The diversity of different groups and individuals that have read the book and found it useful really pleases me. For example “ I got an email from a person in Virginia who trains psychotherapists and who uses the book as a training manual and gives them a copy when they graduate for psychotherapy training.
It is like, “Wow! Here is a book that is helping real estate agents and businessmen and social workers and psychotherapists and social workers and ministers with their sermons, and all sorts of things. Hurray!”

Avocationist: You worked on this book for a long time?

Patricia: Yes I did; 20 years. Literally I started over 20 years ago. I was teaching a class for adults in Stanford night school, their Continuing Studies Program, which is open to anyone. I taught classes that had 20-30 adults that were Silicon Valley computer geeks, librarians, retired people, people in transition; moms and whatnot. These are adults that would come for a 10-week course to learn how to improvise. People who took the Improv classes, said, “Golly! This is useful information. You ought to write a book!”

“The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.”

So I started writing in 1992 and it was then that the book began; actually it has been 20 years so that would take it back to 1988. I had a first version of the book in 1998. It was long process. The book has continued to morph from one thing into another. As I have grown older and learned more things, the ideas have been more refined; the gist of them has gotten clearer. The thing that I have been most happy about is when people say that the book is really simple and that it is clear and easy to read.

Avocationist: If you could think of what is the core of the book after the 20 years of refining it, what would you say that is?

Patricia: I would say the book is basically how to find your voice; believing in yourself and trusting your own ideas and then checking them out. I think a lot of us have ideas about what we want or how we might want to live our lives, and sometimes we act on them and sometimes we don’t. I think the real message of Improv is ‘Wake up and pay attention to life; don’t just live in your head’. The attention is partly intellectual, but a lot of it is really visual and sensory. Move your attention out into the world around you; notice other people and notice what is happening. Deeply in the Improv message is to pay attention to life. Get out of your ruminating, planning, thinking, fearing brain and wake up to what is actually happening, and then, take a chance.

“Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens.”

One of the other maxims is: make mistakes and take a risk. The improviser doesn’t know how his actions are going to turn out. You can’t think into the future and you are not supposed to. You just stay in the present and try something. The real message is to try and take a step. Do something that is important to you that means something and see what happens. Then you have data. Once you have taken a step in any direction, you have more data about whether you like that direction or not and whether there is a path there. I think this can apply to the thing that you are studying, which is how to help turn around a life that might be not going in the direction that one wants or is not really fulfilling. An example of that might be, if there is something that you are passionate about, something that you love that may be in the avocational area of your own existence, find ways to devote more time to that. Maybe you could volunteer to give yourself a way of doing it. Some of these things can lead into a wage-earning activity. You might create a new job that may not even exist.

Avocationist: I agree with that. As you follow your instincts, you will find other people that like these same things you do and you can form your own support group of people that are like you with the same interest.

Patricia: The world is full of amazing potential and it is not so much even thinking outside the box, which is the common terminology for thinking creatively, but I would suggest you think inside the box with clearer eyes, and that means looking at what is really obvious to you. Write what is obvious to you and do the thing that you are very good at or that pulls your attention and draws you. I think we are all born naturally with interests and talents and proclivities, if given a chance to try out various things. I am always suggesting people follow their wonder or their passion or something that seems interesting to them, no matter how illogical it may be.

“Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later.”

I do believe that everything we do is grist for the mill and becomes part of the mix of who we are. It doesn’t have to be logical. Often it is an illogical tangent that leads to something later. Trust your weird instincts.

Avocationist: I agree with that and have experienced that as well. I got back into a hobby of photography and found a group locally in Charlotte. A speaker came one time to talk about what I thought was going to be the subject of lighting, but he ended up talking about his blog and that led me to start this blog. It turned out to be a different thing I was interested in and it all started because of exploring one thing that I was interested in, photography, and had nothing to do with my work or anything else.
Take me back to how your career started.

Patricia: I was a philosophy major in college – philosophy and Greek studies – real practical things. I was the first in my family to go to college, and I put myself through college working in a Thom McCann Shoe Store and living at home. I loved going to college. I loved thinking and studying and was not even considering a job or a career or anything. I finished college and there I was with my philosophy degree in one hand and my Greek studies in the other and thought, “Well, what job is suitable for you?” I looked around and nobody was really hiring philosophy majors or Greek study majors. I was not suited for anything.

“Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.”

Instead of just giving up at that point, I thought, “Well, if I am not fit for anything, I might as well go back to school and do what I really want to do, which is drama.” I am trying to figure out how on earth I managed. I took a job as a waitress just to earn my keep and I was still living at home for that time. I followed my wonder at a critical point and I started taking classes at another college in theater, which was hardly a logical choice. Theatre classes were not likely to lead to any gainful employment, if you think about it.

Avocationist: Had you acted before, like back in high school?

Patricia: Yes, a little bit in high school and then while I was back in college studying philosophy, I got into the drama group and I was in plays. That is what I loved doing, but I wasn’t a major or anything. So I thought, “I would really like to study this.” Again, not thinking it was going to lead to any career because I was intelligent enough to know that you are not going to earn a living as an actor, for heaven’s sake.

“The head of the department said, ‘You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher’”

Then, one semester into classes at Richmond Professional Institute the head of the department said, “You know, I think you would make a great drama teacher, and actually St. Catherine’s School for Girls is a private Episcopal school here that is looking for a drama teacher. If you would like, I will put your name up for that because I think you would be really good for in that position.”

“I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.”

So this amazing thing happened after only one semester of formally studying drama: I found myself the head of the drama program at St. Catherine’s School for Girls, which was fabulous. I was living as a resident teacher in Richmond and had an apartment and got my food at the school and had the princely salary of $3500/ per year plus room and board. This was like in 1963 and I was a drama teacher, and I loved it! I had fallen into this without really even trying. I had fallen into it because I followed my wonder and did the thing that I loved to do.

Avocationist: What did you think the head of the department saw in you that made him think that you would be a good teacher?

Patricia: I don’t know. I think he was right because I think deep in my soul more than anything else, I am a teacher. It didn’t matter that it was drama and it is not that what he saw in me was an actress or a director, he saw in me someone who loved to communicate about education. That has been true throughout my life and I have always been and have the soul of a teacher, but I never thought about teaching or being a high school teacher. So he saw that… I think part of it is intellectual; a kind of capacity for thinking in a certain way, good communication skills and the like. The other thing that really suits me to be a teacher is that I like a salary and a regular job. I would be a really lousy business person trying month by month to figure out how to get to the next month. I would be a bad boss for myself. I love having a regular paycheck and being able to figure out how to live on what I was bringing in, which I have always been able to do. I am very sensible at finance and even on $3500/year that first year, I saved $800 and was able to travel to England. Isn’t that something? Saving is another one of those things - I don’t write about this in the book - but I think it is something I learned at an early age and I am so proud of how I manage money. I am a good saver and I never overspend. I think part of the problem that the world is in today is that we have started believing that all you need is a credit card and the world can be yours. Instant gratification is always around with purchases and money and it has become culturally widespread. I was thinking about how to write my next book called Bring Back Lay-Away!

Avocationist: I have actually seen that some stores are doing that this year.

Patricia: I started writing an article a year ago that is about managing your life by being really careful about saving and putting things away for the future. That is another secret of my success, that no matter what I earned, even when it was $3500/year, I saved $800 of that. I am a saver so that allows me to take risks if I have created some kind of small cushion for myself. I am not fearful that if I don’t do “X”, then I am not going to be able to feed my family. So by looking at whatever situation you are in and being realistic about your money, saving carefully, and how you spend is part of the mix. I think by being able to talk about these other philosophical issues - taking a risk and following your wonder is possible if you have your rent paid.

Avocationist: Another thing that occurs to me about what you are saying is that, a lot of times if you have constraints that you put on yourself and on your spending, it helps you to be more creative and conscientious about what you do. I remember one year my wife and I decided that because we had bought a new house and we didn’t have a lot of extra money that we would just spend $10 on each other for Christmas gifts that year. I found a little $9.95 photo album and put together this really nice gift for her that was probably more meaningful than if I had spent a lot more money. Also I had a great time doing it. Those are the sorts of things that you don’t do if you can buy anything you want.

Patricia: That is true and I think that is at the heart of the message of the book plus it involves the value of restraint and limits in life because it forces us to be more creative. In the world we live in today we often have more money than we need, and we use that money more than we use thoughtfulness. We all know, and there is a lot of data that shows prosperity does not bring happiness in itself, that there are other human values that are going to make the difference (time with our community and family, getting away from the television, and eating healthy food, for example are simple things that bring us happiness).

Avocationist: Yes; and those things don’t necessarily cost anything at all.

David Chilton is the author of “The Wealthy Barber” – the multi-million-selling financial planning guide. At the peak of his success, he literally walked away to spend 3 years home-schooling his kids. In his entrepreneurial career, he has also been a broker, financial planner, and cookbook publisher.

Avocationist spoke to him in March 2008. The first of a three-part interview.

“One thing that helped me is that I am always open-minded.”

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Dave, I know you from your book “The Wealthy Barber” and I saw you on PBS a long time ago, but could you tell me what you are doing today? How do you make your living now?

Dave: Well, I am truly an entrepreneur and I am involved in a lot of different things. I still give a lot of speeches; that is a big part of my career and a big part of my income, but I also publish cookbooks and I do some different things on the side. I just hired two young men, university graduates who are very sharp, curious, charismatic and have high energy and I thought, “You know what? Let’s start something new.” So I brought them aboard and the three of us are looking at all kinds of different ideas with really no firm game plan right now. It is an unusual business model, but I think it is a good idea and I am having a lot of fun and it has reenergized me, so it is all positive.

“Experience has its up side, but the downside is that you tend to think in patterns once you have experienced different things.”

Avocationist: What a great opportunity for them.

Dave: I think I am benefitting more than they are in that I am completely reenergized by their youth, but the fact is that sometimes having very limited experience is a positive. You tend to think out of the box more naturally. Experience has its up side, but the downside is that you tend to think in patterns once you have experienced different things. These guys are not at that point yet, and I find a lot of the angles they take to be very refreshing. It has been a positive experience and I have been very lucky.

“I didn’t love it because I liked dealing with regular folks.”

My career has been an extremely unusual one in that I was a conventional stockbroker, dealing with the upper echelon when I was quite young. I didn’t love it because I liked dealing with regular folks -- people who were struggling to pay off their mortgage or couldn’t decide what to do with their 401(k) contribution. But of course that is not where the money is, so I knew that it wasn’t for me long-term. I caught a very lucky break, and sometimes luck does play a pivotal role in a career. I gave a speech one night to teachers on financial planning and I used a lot of humor, and I could see that the humor was cutting through the intimidation and dryness, and I used anecdotes instead of the conventional charts and graphs. I thought I was onto something. I am amazed I did this at this age, but I quit; I just walked away from being a broker.

Avocationist: How old were you then?

Dave: I was 25. I walked away and I set up a company teaching financial planning to teachers, and I settled for a much lower income. It was a very modest enterprise but I didn’t really care. Maybe six months to a year later I got the idea to work on a book, and that led to “The Wealthy Barber,” which told a story about a barber who would become wealthy. He had done the common sense things right in his financial planning approach and he was now educating younger people in their 20’s while he cut their hair.

Avocationist: How did you come up with the idea for “The Wealthy Barber”?

Dave: I actually came up with one book idea before I stumbled onto “The Wealthy Barber” called “The Ultimate Guide to Losing Money,” and it wasn’t story-based, but it was very humorous. I think it was close, but it didn’t bring the reader in to the same extent “The Wealthy Barber” did. Then I shifted over to “The Wealthy Barber” and almost immediately it took off. I think a lot of it is just from watching people and that old thing about “Where is their pain? What aren’t they getting?” I think in financial planning a lot of the pain revolves around a lack of understanding of the common sense basics. So those are not that tough to teach if you can get past the intimidation and past the skepticism, past peoples’ lack of confidence. That is what the story format allowed me to do. I had a lead character who shared all of those fears and I think the reader could relate to him. “If this guy can learn, maybe I can learn with him,” and I think that is why the book did well.

Avocationist: So when you wrote your first book on “How To Lose Money” and it didn’t work out…

Dave: I didn’t launch it. I got about three months into writing it and -- people think I am kidding when I say this -- I watched the TV show “Cheers” one night and that is what got me onto “The Wealthy Barber.” The original title was “The Wealthy Bartender.” I thought I’d use a fictional setting and use the give and take of dialogue -- I thought that would be a more effective way to teach it. I actually got about four chapters into “The Wealthy Bartender;” the problem was the alcohol, and all of the subplots revolved around misbehaviors in bars and I wasn’t 100 percent comfortable with that, so I moved it to the barber shop. I thought it was a good idea and was very confident I was on the right track.

Avocationist: How did you develop your characters?

Dave: I didn’t have a background in writing; I think I am a good speaker, but writing was not something I focused my energies on. My father is extremely literate and my sister is a professional editor, so I was able to harness their strengths. I got them involved early; they didn’t come in late as a conventional editor does. They helped me on an ongoing basis with character development and dialogue, and I think that is why the book turned out fairly well. Drawing down from characters and settings I was familiar with made the whole writing process easier. It took a year and a half to write that book, working full-time, all the time and my father and my sister worked almost every night on it as well. We would re-craft pages and redo them over and over and over again. I put everything I had into that book.

Avocationist: Did you enjoy the success the book received?

Dave: I self-published the book and my goal was to sell 10,000, and I think it is up to about 2.7 or 2.8 million now. It took on a life of its own, and I enjoyed that career immensely. At the peak of the popularity of “The Wealthy Barber,” the PBS show was airing where I gave my speech on the concepts in the book, and the speaking requests were coming fast and furious. And then I decided to go in a totally different direction. I really enjoyed it but I hit a point where that much time on the road was overwhelming. I had young children and I thought I wouldn’t mind trying something new, so I literally quit. I walked away and I retired completely from speaking and I went into publishing cookbooks and I started homeschooling my kids for three years. It was probably the best decision I ever made. I enjoyed the whole thing immensely and I don’t have any regrets whatsoever.

Avocationist: How old were you when you made that decision to step back?

Dave: I think my son was in grade 5, so I was about 36 or 37. It was probably about 10 years ago now, so it was well into “The Wealthy Barber” success. Financially, “The Wealthy Barber” had been very rewarding and gave me some flexibility and freedom that others don’t have. Being financially stable, unlike I was when I first quit my broker job, did give me some courage. I was still enjoying my career, but I was not enjoying it as much. I didn’t want to get to the point where I wasn’t enjoying it at all, so I wanted to try something new. Getting involved in the publishing of cookbooks was ideal because I could take what I learned publishing “The Wealthy Barber” and I could apply it to the model, but I didn’t have to do the traveling and hit the road; the authors did. It gave me the flexibility to homeschool my children, and really, it has been a great experience.

Avocationist: How did you get into publishing cookbooks?

Dave: Two women, sisters from Ottawa, Canada called me up one day and pitched me on a cookbook. This was in 1996 and I wasn’t interested -- I didn’t know anything about cooking and didn’t want to be a publisher. I wanted to be a finance expert. They kept badgering me over a period of months and sending me e-mails, phoning me, coming to see me speak and showing me sample pages of their book. Eventually they wore me down. My mother actually cooked some recipes and said, “This food is phenomenal!” You can do all the focus groups and formal research you want, but as I often tell MBA classes, “When your mother tells you to publish a book, publish it!”

I decided to take the plunge and it has been a phenomenal experience. They have written three cookbooks and have sold almost 2 million copies total. It has been a very lucrative business because we have kept it all in-house. We controlled the entire process including distribution, so the margins have been quite good. More importantly, it has been very satisfactory in terms of the impact it has had on people.

“I have been very lucky in my career to be involved in a couple of projects that have been positively influential on others.”

I think I have been very lucky in my career to be involved in a couple of projects that have been positively influential on others. People have used “The Wealthy Barber” to get their finances in order. They have used the cookbooks to eat much more healthfully. There is great satisfaction that comes from that and it is extremely motivating.

“Make sure you love the products you are associated with.”

One of the things I have tried to teach my own kids is to make sure you love the products you are associated with and that you don’t want to sell commodity-oriented products. You want to sell things that you really believe are difference makers; things that you are proud to have your name associated with and things that can help people. When you do that, you tend to get more creative and more passionate.

Avocationist: When you started working with the cookbook sisters, were there other things going on in your life that made you think, “Hey, I could apply my business model differently than I have before?”

Dave: I would love to say yes, that I was looking for an idea and this happened to fit and I was that clever, but I really wasn’t. I was looking to do something different, and I admit that it was not in publishing. I don’t deserve much credit for the cookbook because I actually said no for a long time and didn’t recognize the potential of the books. If it weren’t for my mother, I would not have taken it on. I was a little lucky there, and I think a lot of people out there say it is not about luck, it is all about persistence and stick-to-it-iveness and skills, and I think those are key, but luck does play a role in life.

“One thing that helped me is that I am always open-minded.”

I have had the greatest parents you can have and that is lucky. I didn’t do anything to deserve that. I have had phenomenal health in my life. I think the combination of those two things alone makes me a pretty lucky guy. And then little breaks like my mother looking at the cookbook and saying, “Wait a second; I think this book is different and any one I have seen.” That really swayed me. So no, I didn’t have a master plan. It was all quite a lot of luck. But one thing that helped me is that I am always open-minded. I don’t close my mind off to something.

Avocationist: Are you selling it through a website? You said you controlled the distribution.

Dave: Yes. We have the website Eatshrinkandbemerry.com and control the distribution there, and in Canada we sell through conventional bookstore channels. In the States we sell it through the website and through QVC. It has been a great model and the sisters have been a delight to work with. I talked earlier about how the great satisfaction in life comes form helping other people, and these two are completely motivated by helping others to eat more healthfully. I think one of the reasons they made so much money is because money is not their focus.

Next: Dave talks about leaving his speaking career to teach his kids.

Edna Bacon talks about using school as a way to make transitions and about her “crazy” change at age 50.

The Avocationist spoke to her in March 2008. The second of three parts.

“I think my Mother thought I was crazy.”

Sound Bites

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: During that time period, were there any people who were particularly helpful or gave you advice that helped you?

Edna: That was when I met my good friend Kent Leslie. Kent has been an important person in encouraging me to do things, and I know that when I was making pottery, my goal was to make the perfect pitcher, and she would always say, “Do it until it suits you.”

"I actually learned something about the Egyptian art in the process of answering that question that I wouldn’t have learned by studying."

I also remember really liking the art history professor, Marie Pepe. The art history was the basis for my wanting to travel, like going to Peru; it was because of the art that is there. I took several courses from her, but there was one in particular about ancient art. When I took the exam, there were going to be three questions and you had to do two of the three, and so I just kind of gambled that I wouldn’t have to know much about the Egyptian art part, and didn’t really study that. Then it turned out that it was a question I couldn’t avoid, so I did it. When the next quarter began, she called me in after class and said, “I just want you to know that you made 100 on that exam, and I have never had anybody do that.” I actually learned something about the Egyptian art in the process of answering that question that I wouldn’t have learned by studying. I didn’t follow up on my interest in art history. That would have been another path.

Avocationist: So you got that enjoyment out of traveling and going to art museums and galleries?

Edna: Yes, exactly. In fact, my senior year in college, I went to New York at Thanksgiving with a friend. During the day, I was kind of on my own and went to art museums. I don’t know why, necessarily, except that is what you did in New York. When I came back, in the winter quarter I had extra hours so I took an art history course, and I still remember that course. It was interesting, but you can’t follow every track, as you well know.

Avocationist: Not all at once, anyway.

Edna: That I think is important for people to know: You make a decision at one point, but you can change.

Avocationist: Out of all the changes you made, which felt like the most major transition for you?

Edna: It was when I went to school for art. The thing I realized about myself is that when I hit, for lack of a better word, a “crisis point” or a “change time” for me, my response was to go back to school. When I hit the early thirties and thought, “Is this all there is?” I went back to school. When all of my children were leaving home, I went back to school. I think my Mother thought I was crazy going back to school and doing the art therapy.

Avocationist: Why did she think it was crazy?

Edna: I just think she thought, “Why at 50 would you go back to school and do something new?” But I blamed it on the fact that I didn’t get to go to Kindergarten when I was 5. With my brothers in school, I was just chomping at the bits to go to school and to read. Then when I got to school and Milton got to high school, I wanted the books that didn’t have pictures and had lots of words; they looked more serious than the ones I was using. My home town, Buford GA, didn’t have a Kindergarten, but Mama had agreed that when I was 5, I could go to this nursery school for children of women who worked It was wonderful, but not long after I started, scarlet fever broke out and they closed it.

"We just came into the first grade room and sat down. We were probably 4."

In fact, when we were living in a house in Buford about three or four blocks from the school, my brother’s first grade teacher told Mama that one day she looked up and Harriet, my little friend up the street, and I had come in and sat down in the back of the room. We just came into the first grade room and sat down. We were probably 4. Miss Daisy told Mama, “I just let them sit for awhile, and then I told them they might want to go back home.” I was very anxious to get to school. That is one pattern that I see in my life.

"Art therapy was something I could do that I didn’t have to retire from."

On a different note, I think another thing that led me to art therapy was that I thought that it was something I could do that I didn’t have to retire from. It was something I could do less of and still do it. The way I was doing pottery was very physical; making functional things, loading and unloading the kiln and packing up and going to shows and sitting there all day and unpacking. The physical part of it made me realize I was getting old.

Next: artist friends bring Edna back around to art.