John Cleghorn served as speechwriter for Bank of America CEO Hugh McColl during the trememdous growth that built the second-largest bank in the US. John's speechwriter role was the first of a successful 18-year career at the bank that also included a job as head of Issues Management.

At the age of 46, with a wife and two young daughters, John has just left his career in banking to answer the call to ministry.

In this second of a two-part interview, John talks about the challenges of facing a major career change and about the need for “courageous conversations” in looking for your calling.

“There was always that option to say, ‘We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,’ but that was way, way too disruptive.”

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: The desire to go into the seminary never really went away?

John: No, it never went away. As much of a company man as I was and as stimulated as I was by all of that, my internal voices kept reminding me that that wasn’t the best and highest use of my life, as wonderful as it all is. I periodically pulled up considering the seminary and said, “Could I scratch that itch? Could I go to Duke? Could I go to Columbia?” But I had a family and a mortgage and a life in Charlotte and there was no seminary here that suited my theology—then one opened up in Charlotte with a weekend program for second career people.

Avocationist: You mentioned that your banking career wasn't "the best and highest use." Why do you think you felt that way?

John: I am not a “voice in the middle of the night” kind of person, but there is an obligation to constantly ask, “What is possible with my life?” For me that ultimately led to going down this path. Then when the seminary opened, it was so obvious that I was almost completely humbled because quite frankly it required very little sacrifice. There were sacrifices on my family’s part and my wife worked more hours taking care of the family, but to make this kind of transition, all of the pieces were there.

There was always that option to say, “We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,” but that was way, way too disruptive. Everybody has their own equation, I think, but for me it is the natural sum of everything that has been made possible for me by others and my opportunity to apply it.

Avocationist: If you look back over your life, of all the jobs you have done, which one was your favorite at the time you were doing it?

John: That is a great way to ask that question. The answer is every one of them, at the time I was doing them. There was a pinnacle for each one. I can remember a time in journalism where it was just right. I was comfortable in the role, I had enough perspective to appreciate it and I loved it and then that sort of trailed off. The peak period at the bank probably lasted longer because it was so fun and so completely engaging for so many years that it was the best job I had ever had. And then the issues management job was the best job I could ever imagine, and now; I have not done this ministry work full-time, but I have done it enough on the side to know that it is the best job I could have ever asked for and I hope it feeds me that way from here on out. I can’t single out one thing. Part of that—the very fact that I can’t remember a year or a day that I didn’t say, “It doesn’t get any better than this"— is another reason for just the enormous gratitude I feel, because none of this is my doing. That creates a sense of obligation in me. And reminds me that I have had a very privileged path.

Avocationist: John, were there any transitions in your career that were particularly difficult?

John: The most difficult was probably the time when I realized that I probably needed to think about life after the bank. It had been so intoxicating and so fulfilling and I could have remained there for the rest of my career. I had absolute respect for the company and its management, but in a sense I was so focused in my 30’s, that I don’t know that I was truly plumbing the depths of my being and asking myself the hard questions. Those kind of built up and there was a one- or two-year period where I was groping again about what comes next, and that is hard, especially when you have obligations.

Avocationist: Do you think most of us go through those periods?

John: There are some folks that just cruise right through adulthood and never wrestle with those questions, and God bless them. There is liberation in that, but for many, for whatever reason, coming to grips with the fact that I might need to recreate myself was jarring. But again, I had a pretty gentle environment in which to do that because the bank continued to be supportive and encouraging. I can’t say that I was walking around unhappy but internally I was struggling with the questions. Other than that, it was transitional from newspapering to one application in banking and then a different career in banking. Those were kind of logical progressions, so it took some intentionality in thinking, “What am I best at and where are my rough edges?” but it was not from AC to DC.

Avocationist: You have talked about a number of people in your life that have been particularly helpful, Mr. McColl and Joe Martin being two. Were there other folks who came along at key moments during your decision-making process?

John: Constantly – like the person I had breakfast with an hour ago. Thinking back, I grew up in Atlanta and I was around people who had positions of influence and power and success and prosperity, so I had a front row seat to see how people handle that. I was never without the opportunity to see what people who were very successful did with their lives. Which ones gave back and which ones, for whatever reason, didn’t. I think all of that was subconscious. It wasn’t like when I was ten or fifteen or eighteen that I was some methodological student of leadership, but all of that was sinking into my pores.

When I got out of college I came to a city [Charlotte] where there was sort of this social contract that you could network with anybody you wanted to. I did meet people at church and in the community and I always wanted to be active. My way of being involved in the community when I was a newspaper reporter was to be very involved in non-profits. There again, in Charlotte the Presbyterian Churches are very connectional so I met lots and lots of people. In addition to Mr. McColl and Joe Martin there is Doug Oldenburg, who was a senior pastor of Covenant church and ran the seminary and then was elected to the top office of the Presbyterian Church nationally. He has been an influence. And people like you who were my peers. I saw them asking these same questions, and that was a subtle encouragement that “This isn’t crazy.”

Avocationist: It’s really not. Actually, what I'm finding out is that it is really quite normal.

John: There is some unspoken community out there in the catacombs finding each other. There were highly visible people who made time for me and were generous to me beyond anything that I could ever ask for or expected, and then the average Joe’s who said, “You know what? I have some of those same questions, too.” It is sort of a communion of saints.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what to do next with their lives?

John: Think long-term. Understand that life has its stages. In Ecclesiastes it is written, “There is a season for everything," so be content with what you are doing, but always have your eye on the horizon. Be very intentional in the moment of saying, “What am I learning? How am I growing? Am I stagnating? Am I around people who are stretching me? Am I stretching myself?” Figure out how can I put these phases together in a logical progression and never, ever, ever forget joy. A book that everybody’s heard about, “What Color is Your Parachute?" has a concept of a fundamental, simple idea: ask yourself "What is my number?” or “Am I tied forever to what I am doing or can I do something else?”

You have to have the courage and you have to have faith—and I can't not bring my faith to it—to take that step. And if you have faith, that makes it a whole lot easier. It might look very precarious in the short term, but I think the scripture tells us over and over again that there is a plan and we just need to listen for it.

Avocationist: I think a lot of it is just you have to be okay with what it is, too. Maybe part of it is just accepting that there is a plan, that you are a certain thing and maybe it is different than what you thought you ought to be. It doesn’t go away.

John: It is a process of very intentional listening and having humility. One of the best lines I heard when I was in school, “If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans,” because we are not in control. If we are humble enough to listen and say, “Thy will be done,” things become clearer . Even if we don’t have a faith context like that, but ask that question of yourself in whatever spiritual framework you have.

Sometimes I think subconsciously we want to impose a path that we have laid out. By 30 I am going to be here and by 35 I am going to be there and by 40…, but it doesn’t work that way. And to your point earlier, sometimes you really have to take a little bit of a grain of humility and say, I'm okay if people think that I am not going to be a rock star right now, or if my neighbor looks down his nose at me because I am not the most powerful guy, or whatever. Because that is just at that moment and you are on a path to somewhere else. You are always on a path to somewhere else, if that makes any sense.

Avocationist: It makes a lot of sense, and I totally agree. It is really all through the gospel if you look at it. “Why birds don’t worry; they have plenty to eat; why do you worry?”

John: Yes, and that takes courage and strength and I am not saying that I always have it. I credit my wife with having terrific courage and faith because she never intended to marry a pastor and she has demonstrated that to me because there are adjustments to be made.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

John: That is such a good question. I think where I have tried to discern a path for me personally, it has indirectly and sometimes very directly had implications for my family. So I don’t know if they are regrets so much as sort of a deep awareness that there is a tension between trying to find your path as an individual, what are you put on earth to do at any given stage in your life, and the ramifications that has for those around you. You've got to always try to figure out, “How do I reconcile those?” At times I know I have been absent and sometimes I know I have put hardships on my wife and I have been away from my little girls more hours in a week than I would prefer, and I don’t know now to reconcile that right now.

"Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you."

Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you. I don’t have an answer for that. How do you say, “What is the very best I can be? What is the greatest that I can stretch?" without that having implications on those around me who are impacted?

I don’t know if it is a regret because I feel enormously blessed beyond anything that I could ever ask for or deserve, but I guess I am just keenly aware of the implications for others. I just pray that they are held by the same strong arms that I feel held by.

Avocationist: Can I answer it for you based on what we have talked about? I think that obviously your family is very important to you and your faith is very important to you and giving back is important to you. You have talked about three areas and I think of you that way.

John: You too. I love the idea of this service you are doing for others, because it is a bit of an underground society.

Avocationist: Yes, and I think it is hard to find people to talk to about it. The internet is creating new opportunities to have a big impact just by building a very focused website.

John: Part of it is that these are courageous conversations. For whatever reason, our society doesn’t give permission to ask these questions out loud. Or even, as a rising Senior Vice President of a bank to admit that I have these questions. For whatever reason, I think our society doesn’t say to that man or that woman, “It’s okay.”

"They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat."

There are many people asking themselves the same questions. They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat. For whatever reason our external public society doesn’t always smile on that, and it is a shame.

Avocationist: Cultures in organizations and society can be so overwhelming and powerful. It can be so dominant that it kind of snuffs out the “small voice” that’s speaking to you.

John: Yes; and we as a culture don’t allow much quiet and peace and solitude. Congratulations to you for doing this. I know it will change people’s paths in a positive way.

Avocationist: Thanks a lot, John. It was great.

In this interview, Edna Bacon shares her latest career transition - she has come full-circle and is again creating ceramic art. And she is taking the opportunities to exhibit in galleries that she passed up early in her career. Edna talks about how her friendships with other artists have brought these new experiences.

Avocationist spoke to her in March 2008. The last of three-parts.

“I think you are always transitioning if you are not dead.”

Sound Bites

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Where are you now with your career and your life? Are in a stable place or are you in a transition?

Edna: I think you are always transitioning if you are not dead. I guess some of it is deciding at this point, how much work do I want to do, and asking yourself questions like, “Do I want to work on Friday?” And if I don’t want to work on Friday, how does that affect what I do?

Avocationist: Now that you have come around the circle from the pottery back to the art, how do you feel now about art?

Edna: Now it is about doing the art. I think things happen when you are doing it, like the show I did down at Studio Swan -- it is just amazing when you are in there working, the things that come to you, or the things that happen that you can’t predict that give you more ideas.

Avocationist: If you had any advice for your grandkids about life and changes, what would you tell them?

Edna: I would say learn as much about yourself as you can and be aware of what you love to do. Sometimes it is a funny combination of needing to do things for whatever reason, particularly for money to earn and living, and wondering how you can make that, doing what you love, fit into that. I guess I would just suggest following rabbit trails, no matter how crazy they seem on some level. You don’t have to throw everything overboard to do it. Ask “What can I do that feeds me?” I don’t think that it can always become your career, but you don’t know.

I guess another thing is deciding what you need money-wise and what you don’t need, and how that dictates what you do. My husband was the main money-earner so I had the freedom, but I also had the children, though it did give me certain freedom too to not be the main source of income. Looking back on it I think, “Why didn’t I just do a full-time job and make money?” But it didn’t seem that it was the way it worked.

Avocationist: You couldn’t have done all the travel and seen so much of your kids.

Edna: I know. Like some women who are younger than I am -- I just look at how driven they are, job-wise, and it really is a difference. Of course, they came along in a time when women could “do whatever they wanted to do,” and went the business route, but I guess they must find that fulfilling in some way too, and they do have rich lives. It is just different from what I did. When I came along, I was just a little bit ahead of the women’s movement by a few years. You married and you had children and I really, in some ways, feel that I am very fortunate that I did that and was happy doing that, and then said, “OK, what now?” instead of having a career and then stepping back from it and figuring out how to fit children into that. It was a real luxury to have children and have people around who were doing the same thing. I think that is half of it too.

Avocationist: I know many women who talk about wanting to have kids and stay home with them while doing something on the side – they all believe they can do many things.

Edna: Yes, but perhaps not all at once. I know the daughter of a friend who chose anesthesiology because that was something that would be a set schedule, and she could probably do it part-time. People talk about selling out, and it really isn’t, in a way. It is a way to have that time with children that can be frustrating as well as wonderful. I am really glad I did that.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets about any of the choices you have made?

Edna: This is probably true of many women, but I don’t think I have ever taken myself seriously enough or what I do seriously enough. It is the other side of the coin that we are talking about. I let other things get in the way, and some of it was appropriate and some of it was not appropriate. I think with everything I have done, I have worked it around other things.

"People suggested things and it was too overwhelming to even think about."

I do have another regret; when I was first doing pottery and we had set up a tent at the Piedmont Art Show, the woman who owned the Signature Shop wanted me to bring pots by for her to see, and I could never get them made to take. That is a regret; that I didn’t follow through. There are probably other instances like that when people suggested things and it was too overwhelming to even think about.

Avocationist: Do you think you weren’t ready for it yet?

Edna: Yes.

Avocationist: Isn’t that interesting that it has come back around and you are doing gallery shows now?

Edna: I know, and that is through relationships, actually. It is through knowing that friends like my work and they like me. Someone used to tell me, “I don’t know whether people buy your pots because they like the pots or they like you.” Actually, when I buy art, I really like knowing the person I am buying it from. That is a huge part of my life.

Avocationist: That is something we haven’t talked about yet, but which I think is such an important part of you – all your great relationships with people. Everyone seems to universally love you.

Edna: That is part of the not taking myself seriously. I do have a lot of really good friends, and that has been very important.

Avocationist: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Edna: I guess another thing that I am really aware of is the times I have grown up in, because that is something that has to affect us. I was born right before World War II and I grew up in the ‘50s and finished college in 1961. Having lived during a basically peaceful and prosperous time in the United States has to be part of this, too; I had choices that I might not have had at another time.

Like my grandmother who also loved school, but her father died when she was 14 and she had to go to work; that was the end of school for her. She became an expert seamstress and tailor, which also stopped when she married, I imagine, except that she sewed for her family. Daddy, who didn’t have the college education but worked hard and worked smart saw to it that we all went to the schools we wanted to go to. It is funny that growing up, there was never much talk about money. I guess the money thing is a weird thing in my life, too. I don’t like money, but I like the result of money. You always knew that you had money for what you needed and a lot of what you wanted to do. I knew that there would be money for college, and we all knew that we would finish college. That was never spoken or said to us. We all knew that we would go to college and finish, but there was never any sense of wanting something and expressing that if it was outside the realm of what was provided.

"It has been a source of relationships with people who have challenged and encouraged me throughout my life."

Another thing that’s been a constant in my life is my Christian faith and community. It has been a source of relationships with people who have challenged and encouraged me throughout my life.

Avocationist: My last question is how would you like to be remembered?

Edna: I would like to be remembered as a good friend and as an artist and as someone who takes herself seriously, and I have a few years left to do that.

Avocationist: I don’t know if I ever told you this, but you are my career hero.

Edna: Really?

Avocationist: I think I can do all of these crazy things that I think I can do because of the fact that when you were 50 you went back to school to do something totally different. That is why I wanted to interview you.

Edna: Thank you. You know, a mentor would be a good thing to be remembered as, too. Thank you! That is wonderful.

Edna Bacon talks about using school as a way to make transitions and about her “crazy” change at age 50.

The Avocationist spoke to her in March 2008. The second of three parts.

“I think my Mother thought I was crazy.”

Sound Bites

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: During that time period, were there any people who were particularly helpful or gave you advice that helped you?

Edna: That was when I met my good friend Kent Leslie. Kent has been an important person in encouraging me to do things, and I know that when I was making pottery, my goal was to make the perfect pitcher, and she would always say, “Do it until it suits you.”

"I actually learned something about the Egyptian art in the process of answering that question that I wouldn’t have learned by studying."

I also remember really liking the art history professor, Marie Pepe. The art history was the basis for my wanting to travel, like going to Peru; it was because of the art that is there. I took several courses from her, but there was one in particular about ancient art. When I took the exam, there were going to be three questions and you had to do two of the three, and so I just kind of gambled that I wouldn’t have to know much about the Egyptian art part, and didn’t really study that. Then it turned out that it was a question I couldn’t avoid, so I did it. When the next quarter began, she called me in after class and said, “I just want you to know that you made 100 on that exam, and I have never had anybody do that.” I actually learned something about the Egyptian art in the process of answering that question that I wouldn’t have learned by studying. I didn’t follow up on my interest in art history. That would have been another path.

Avocationist: So you got that enjoyment out of traveling and going to art museums and galleries?

Edna: Yes, exactly. In fact, my senior year in college, I went to New York at Thanksgiving with a friend. During the day, I was kind of on my own and went to art museums. I don’t know why, necessarily, except that is what you did in New York. When I came back, in the winter quarter I had extra hours so I took an art history course, and I still remember that course. It was interesting, but you can’t follow every track, as you well know.

Avocationist: Not all at once, anyway.

Edna: That I think is important for people to know: You make a decision at one point, but you can change.

Avocationist: Out of all the changes you made, which felt like the most major transition for you?

Edna: It was when I went to school for art. The thing I realized about myself is that when I hit, for lack of a better word, a “crisis point” or a “change time” for me, my response was to go back to school. When I hit the early thirties and thought, “Is this all there is?” I went back to school. When all of my children were leaving home, I went back to school. I think my Mother thought I was crazy going back to school and doing the art therapy.

Avocationist: Why did she think it was crazy?

Edna: I just think she thought, “Why at 50 would you go back to school and do something new?” But I blamed it on the fact that I didn’t get to go to Kindergarten when I was 5. With my brothers in school, I was just chomping at the bits to go to school and to read. Then when I got to school and Milton got to high school, I wanted the books that didn’t have pictures and had lots of words; they looked more serious than the ones I was using. My home town, Buford GA, didn’t have a Kindergarten, but Mama had agreed that when I was 5, I could go to this nursery school for children of women who worked It was wonderful, but not long after I started, scarlet fever broke out and they closed it.

"We just came into the first grade room and sat down. We were probably 4."

In fact, when we were living in a house in Buford about three or four blocks from the school, my brother’s first grade teacher told Mama that one day she looked up and Harriet, my little friend up the street, and I had come in and sat down in the back of the room. We just came into the first grade room and sat down. We were probably 4. Miss Daisy told Mama, “I just let them sit for awhile, and then I told them they might want to go back home.” I was very anxious to get to school. That is one pattern that I see in my life.

"Art therapy was something I could do that I didn’t have to retire from."

On a different note, I think another thing that led me to art therapy was that I thought that it was something I could do that I didn’t have to retire from. It was something I could do less of and still do it. The way I was doing pottery was very physical; making functional things, loading and unloading the kiln and packing up and going to shows and sitting there all day and unpacking. The physical part of it made me realize I was getting old.

Next: artist friends bring Edna back around to art.

She graduated college and became a wife and mother, but at a time when women realized they could do anything, felt like something was missing. After returning to school for an art degree and becoming a ceramic artist, she began to utilize her skills by helping cancer patients cope with their emotions through art therapy.

“I was doing just what I wanted to do.”

The Avocationist spoke with her in March 2008. The first of three parts.

Sound Bites:

Take-Aways:

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Edna, tell me what you do for a living.

Edna: I work part-time as an art therapist; at this point, mainly with people who have cancer or have had cancer, along with their families. I also work as a ceramic artist; a potter, making functional and sculptural objects.

Avocationist: How did you find out about art therapy? It is not very common.

Edna: I knew someone who was an art therapist, and after I had been doing pottery for a while, I felt kind of stuck with what I was doing. I felt that I was doing the same thing over and over again and I thought, “Maybe I will go and see Elizabeth and see if doing some art therapy would unstick my creativity.” It turned out that it stuck a lot of other places too, and that way of working was very helpful. It gave me words where I didn’t have words.

Avocationist: What do you think it is about you that makes you good at this job?

"I am curious about people, and I like hearing people's stories."

Edna: I am curious about people, and I like hearing people’s stories. Growing up in the South, we would get together with family and there were always these stories being told and retold, so I think I am curious about people, and I also have faith in people’s ability to make changes they need to make. I don’t have the answers, but I can help them tap into what they need to do or what they know already. I think it is more about helping people discover that. I don’t think it is very helpful to just map it out for them, even though you think you may know the answer.

Avocationist: You got started in art by going back to school; was there a moment when you decided, “I have to do this?” Was there a change in your life?

Edna: There definitely was. I had grown up, gone to school, graduated from college, worked for a while, married and had children, and it was like I had done everything. I was 32 or a little bit older. I started asking the question “Is this all there is?”

"I have done everything that I expected to do, but there are a lot of years left."

I think around the age of 32 is a time when women ask that question. Men, a lot of times, talk about the mid-life crisis at 40, but I think for women it comes earlier, because either you have had a career and at that age you think, “If I am going to have a family, I need to be doing something about that,” or if you have done it the other way, and you realize the kids are not going to be here forever, and I have done everything that I expected to do, but there are a lot of years left. What am I going to do?

Avocationist: Do you remember the process you went through? Were there any events in particular that stand out from that transition time?

Edna: It was the “Is this all there is?” kind of thing. I guess it was about taking myself more seriously in what I wanted to do and what would be meaningful to do.

Avocationist: How did you go about figuring out what would be meaningful? Was it a process?

Edna: No; it was taking the next step and knowing that I liked working with my hands and knowing that I felt like I didn’t know anything about Art or how to create on my own.

Avocationist: You had three little kids when you were going back to school – was that difficult?

Edna: Not for me. It was really one of the first times that I felt like I lost myself in what I did. I don’t think I ever did that in college. In college, I got the work done, but there was not that deep pleasure that doing the art was, and particularly with the pottery. Sometimes when my husband was home on weekends, I would go to the studio and I could just lose track of time. I just remember sitting in class, particularly the art history class, thinking about how much I knew then that I didn’t know when I was 18 and what a waste college was when I was 18 years old, except I was really glad I didn’t have to take the things that I really didn’t care about taking. I was doing just what I wanted to do and didn’t have the social stuff going on. It was just mainly pure pleasure.

Next: Edna drives her Mom "crazy" by going back to school at age 50.

“I think I’m at a very different place because I have done so many different things.”

This is the final of our five-part interview. Find out more about Angelina and Vocationing at www.themobiuscompany.com

Read the interview:

Avocationist: What are you most proud of among your various careers?

Angelina: I’m probably most proud of my facilitation work. I’m most proud of it because the groups I work with generally feel like they have accomplished what they wanted to accomplish in the time they’ve had together. It’s almost like they almost don’t notice that I’m there. It’s the opposite of being the actress. I’m most proud of the role that puts me in the place of not providing the content and not being center stage. But rather facilitating the power and the energy of the group.

Avocationist: You talked about your spiritual growth, what other areas have influenced who you are at this stage of your life?

Angelina: I would say, just a whole lot of experiences. I think people don’t realize that the best part of changing careers is how a new career or a new job gives you all of these experiences that you didn’t have before. I think I’m at a very different place because I have done so many different things.

Angelina: There’s that wealth of experience I have gotten through the variety of things I've done. I think that has brought me to a different place.

“Of all the things to look at, I would look first at what are you passionate about.”

Avocationist: What advice would you give to young people about their careers?

Angelina: Well, I would say of all the things to look at, I would look first at what are you passionate about. What is your heart’s calling? I think when you figure out what you are passionate about, then you can figure out, “Okay. I’m passionate about this. Now what kind of talents do I have or skills do I have? How can I get involved in that which I am passionate about?” Then the next piece of advice would be look for the different ways to get into that field. Don’t eliminate any options. It might be taking a class. It might be volunteer work. It might be an internship. In other words don’t close off any of the options. I would also offer the advice to “be curious”. Just be curious rather than being judgmental. Say, “Oh. I wonder what would happen if I did that?”, or “I wonder what that course would be like?” Being curious is what gets you to the next place.

Avocationist: How do you think "being curious" helps when facing a change?

Angelina: Being curious is about being open-minded. When you get there, that’s when you can be present, and intentional, and say, “Okay, well now that I’m here and I was curious and I got here. What do I want to do? What’s next?”

Avocationist: So, in other words, you get the most from these new experiences. As you described yourself, you started as a driven, "Type-A" kind of person - how do you hold back enough to look at other options?

Angelina: That is the process of letting go. That really is very much 40 years worth of wisdom and career experiences and that is very, very much from my spiritual practice.

Avocationist: Tell me more about your spiritual practice.

Angelina: My spiritual practice is very much focused on being in the moment and not attaching to a particular outcome. When you’re curious you don’t attach to the outcome. It really is a willingness to accept what is: “Well, you know what, let’s see. I wonder what could happen here? I wonder what this could bring? Who know what this could bring?” As an example from typical job searches, if I'm convinced I’m going to go have lunch with this guy because I’m going to convince this guy to give me a job and then everything you do building up to lunch has this attachment to getting this particular job. The whole conversation is geared that way. You’re just missing all the great stuff that could have happened while you were having that conversation. Maybe you weren’t supposed to have lunch with that guy to give you the job. Maybe that guy was supposed to tell you about somebody else who had a different job. You’ve got to just go to the lunch and say, “I’m going to see what happens. I’m going to listen to what he says and in the middle of all the things he says, maybe I’m going to hear what I’m supposed to hear because I’m not going to be in my head thinking about all this other crap that I’m attached to. But just thinking about listen to what he says.”

Avocationist: How would you like to be remembered at the end of all this?

Angelina: I don’t think anybody’s asked me that. How would I like to be remembered? When I write letters or email, I sign “In Service”.

Angelina: I would like to be remembered as someone who was present. Whether it’s present in the conversation, whether it’s present in an email. I’d like to be remembered as someone who was present and intentional. And made choices, whether they were good or bad.

“You really need to look at what you’ve done through a very broad lens.”

Avocationist: That’s great. Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t get to?

Angelina: One other thing that helps in career transition is to realize that people have a tendency to cubby-hole their own skills. The example I use is when I wanted to leave teaching and work in computer programming. One of their concerns when I interviewed with Digital Equipment Corporation was “We really like to have our consultants at least have been exposed to some sales over the years. Even if you aren’t a sales person. You need to have worked with sales people. Or to have had experience with the sales process.” I was very quick on my feet and my response was, “Obviously you’ve never had to teach thirty 13-year-olds on a hot afternoon in June. I understand sales.” Very often, people will say, “Well, see I don’t have any organizational skills”, or “I don’t have any selling skills”. They don’t look more broadly at what they’ve done in life, and say, “Well, what did I do over there? That little thing that I did when I raised money for the church and I organized everybody to go out there, that was sales”. You really need to look at what you’ve done through a very broad lens, so that you don’t narrowly define what you’ve done. Rather, look at it from the bigger perspective and realize that it is very applicable to what you might want to do next.

Avocationist: A lot of it is about reframing how you think about yourself.

Angelina: Right. Exactly. I mean, I’ve talked with teachers who’ve wanted to leave teaching and say, “But, I’m a teacher. That’s all I’ve done. I’m a teacher.” I think, well if you’re thinking of yourself as only a teacher, then that’s what you’re only seeing. That’s what you’re only going to write on a resume. Let’s go back and look at the other things. What do you do in a relationship to parents? What do you do in the relationship to the organization? You can look at it very differently.

Avocationist: What’s next? What are you excited about now?

Angelina: What’s next. I’m continuing to do facilitating, coaching, teaching and story telling. A little bit more writing. What I’m most excited about is my husband just changed careers. He’s not been as adventurous up to now as I am. He just got in to the world of "going green". Talk about the future trend.

His timing was perfect. I’m really excited about taking what I’ve learned about building my business over the past ten years and helping him build his business over the next ten years.

We’re setting out to build a green home and we’re going to build an average green home for the average home buyer, so they can see you don’t have to spend a gazillion dollars and you can still have solar hot water and all the other stuff. I’m very excited about helping him with his business.

Avocationist: Yeah. The timing is phenomenal.

Angelina: It’s phenomenal.

Avocationist: You must love Al Gore.

Angelina: You could say we love Al Gore.

Next week, Avocationist brings the story of an at-home Mom turned art therapist.

“Even the stuff that really felt lousy served some purpose.”

This is the fourth part of our five-part interview. Find out more about Angelina and Vocationing at www.themobiuscompany.com

Read the interview:

Avocationist:What else influenced your early career choices?

Angelina: In the early part of my career I defined myself by my career. If you define yourself by your career then you put restrictions on yourself when you look for a new career. You say, “I’ve got to make so much money. I’ve got to have this title. I’ve got to work for this kind of company”. As I have gotten older and I’ve made so many career transitions, and, with a little bit of wisdom that comes with age, I’ve paid more attention to the fact that I am not what I do. I’m who I am. I mean, my personality, the definition of who I am is who I am, not what I do.

“I have a career ... but that’s not the definition of me.”

I have a career and I do other activities, but that’s not the definition of me. The definition of me is who I am, regardless of the career. That has really freed me to look very differently at all of the possibilities of what I want to do.

Avocationist: That's a big shift. When did you get to that point?

Angelina: Oh, I would say probably about four or five years ago. It really was almost like an epiphany.

Avocationist: Do you remember a particular time when you kind of realized that, or did it grow over time?

Angelina: Well, it grew over time, but the first time I ever realized it was absolutely crystal clear to me. At the time, I was not working. We had adopted a dog. I used to meet this little girl every morning when I walked the dog. One day I met the little girl at a grocery store and she looked at me and she said, “Oh aren’t you Cassie’s mommy?” I just broke down, got hysterical crying in the store. I explained to this little seven year old, “No, I’m a former vice president. No, I’m a former executive”. I just kind of rattled off my resume to her because it occurred to me that that’s who I thought I was and how dare she think I’m some dog’s mother. I was more important than that.

It was my first real insight in to, “Wait a minute. You’re getting stuff confused here”.

Avocationist: When was that?

Angelina: Well, the really interesting thing is I got it confused two or three more times since that first happened and that was in 1991.

I mean we’ve got 15 years worth of continuing to be confused. I would only say it’s in the last four or five years I went, “Oh, okay, wait a minute. I think I’m getting it now”.

Avocationist: This latest time you got it. Do you remember a particular event around that or was it more just a realization?

Angelina: I think it was just more a realization. I think something just comes back around so many times until you go, “Oh, okay. Oh, okay”.

Avocationist: Talk about what it was like from going to being a teacher to being a computer programmer, versus what it was like during your latest transition.

Angelina: The first time I made the transition from teacher to computer programmer. It was very interesting because I went from working with a lot of people and teaching five or six classes a day with 30 kids. I was constantly “on”. I went from being “on”, to being a computer programmer, sitting at a desk and doing my own things. One of the things that I found very interesting was, one of my bosses said to me early on, “You know this is going to be a challenge because we’ve got a second project for you. During the day we need you to be working on both of them. Is that going to be difficult?” I just said, "every 44 minutes, 40 new people used to show up in my room". I said, “You’re apologizing because I got to work on two projects? This is going to be very easy”. That was a very interesting kind of transition. What was expected of me in one case and what was expected of me in the other case. The other thing I found was because I’m an extrovert and I changed to work that was much more on my own, I had to develop a much richer social life.

Avocationist: So you found a way to compensate for the lack of human contact at work.

Angelina: Yes, because I didn’t have my day full of people. The other thing I discovered was that it was interesting because I look back on it when it was happening and realized that teaching was so emotionally satisfying. The programming, by contrast, was so intellectual satisfying. Really, I just saw the dichotomy and went, “Whoa, how interesting is that”.

I think the second thing is probably, as all of us have, just certain really challenges in life. Whether they are physical or mental or emotional or family. Whatever they are. I think those challenges cause you to think different about yourself and the world.

Avocationist: What else has impacted you?

Angelina: I have a meditative, prayer practice. I find that stillness is really just the single best teacher in the world. In stillness, you know who you are, you know who God is, you figure it out. We’re a culture that’s addicted to speed and it's not in speed it's in quiet, it's in stillness, it's in peace. I’ve had the good fortune of being blessed with a number of very, very good spiritual teachers who smack me aside of the head when I’m like crazy. More importantly, I have a husband who’ll smack me across the side of the head when I’m out of control.

Avocationist: Yes. You talked about challenges that we all have in lives, were there any in your particular life that caused big changes for you, or big turning points?

Angelina: Probably one of my biggest turning points was a divorce. That was a significant turning point. Having gone through a divorce when I was in the middle of a career transition.

Avocationist: Oh wow.

Angelina: Another big challenge was when my ex-husband eventually passed away and died of AIDS when I was in another career transition. The divorce was one of them. Death was another one, that I would say was a huge challenge. I guess the other thing I’d say is to some extent kind of crisis of the soul is a challenge I think all of us face.

Avocationist: What do you mean by that?

Angelina: What is meaningful, what’s not meaningful? Why is this happening? What is it all? That hit me profoundly. I didn’t change careers but the jolt that happens when something like a 9-11, when the world has that kind of impact.

They’re the things that just kind of cause you to stop and say, “Okay. What am I taking seriously here? What am I think I’m doing? How do I want to spend my time?”

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

Angelina: This is probably the strangest thing about me. Compared to everybody else I know. I have none.

It's strange. But I really have this belief, which again is slightly off center, a little different. I have this belief that we invite everything in to our lives. We invite it in to our lives because there’s this nugget. There’s this gem. There’s this pearl. In the middle of whatever we’ve just invited. It's there for a reason. It's usually to grow and to learn and so I don’t have any regrets. Even the stuff that really felt lousy served some purpose.

I don’t think I’d be where I am had I not had each one of those experiences. It's very strange, but I really have lead a life of no regrets.

Avocationist: That’s wonderful.

Angelina: Yeah, it is.

There was a thing my grandfather used to say, “God wrote straight with a crooked line”. When I left my career on Wall Street to get into school reform, I wasn’t working for a couple of months. It was during that time that my ex-husband passed away from AIDS. In hindsight, I looked back on it and said, “Had I been working, I wouldn’t have been able to spend any time with him. I wouldn’t have been able to go visit him.” One of the things that’s just very interesting to me is when people are in transition in careers, its almost like there’s time in here for something. If you’re not paying attention, you’re going to miss it. That opportunity, that blank piece of time, that empty piece of space, is there for a reason. Yes, you need to be looking for the next job, but don’t ignore the fact that maybe during that piece of time, you were supposed to spend more time with somebody. Or you were supposed to build something. Or you were supposed to visit somebody. It’s like those opportunities show up and they happen when you have this chunk of time, and if you had your job you never would have done it.

It’s like there’s this gift in the middle of all that stuff and you don’t expect it.

In the next segment, Angelina offers her advice on matching up your abilities with your career.

“Having the corner office. Having the salary. Then saying, ‘Oh God, is this really all that there is?’”

This is the third of our five-part interview. Find out more about Angelina and Vocationing at www.themobiuscompany.com

Read the interview:

Avocationist: Tell me about your other job transitions.

Angelina: The second transition was from computer programming to accounting. Really that transition happened because when I was the computer programmer for the organization I worked with, I got very involved in the accounting function. That happened very naturally because I was already there.

Avocationist: Were there other difficult changes?

Angelina: The second hardest career transition was probably when I left corporate America and went to work for the small company before I went in to business for myself.

Avocationist: Tell me about that.

Angelina: I took a job really as a director of business development as a salesperson. That was very strange. It was like, “Oh my God, I’m not going to get a regular pay check. I’m going to have to earn my own money”.

Avocationist: How did you deal with that?

Angelina: I thought, “Okay. I’ve made all these other career transitions. Why not try this one”. As I said, I am not terribly risk averse when it comes to career transitions. Much of my life I’m risk averse. With careers I’ve always felt like, “Well, I could always do something else”.

Avocationist: How did you decide to leave corporate America?

Angelina: As I remember, I left corporate America after I had a position of Senior Vice President and Director of Infrastructure. I had all of the corporate functions reporting to me either dotted-line or direct. It was a case having been recruited to Charlotte and having the window corner office, having the salary. Then saying, “Oh God, is this really all that there is?” I hate to say it because it sounds like a terrible cliché.

Avocationist: How old were you then?

Angelina: I was in my mid-40’s and did the equivalent of, “Dear God, there has to be more than this”.

I felt really just being very confused about there really has to be more than this. That’s when I said, “Okay, let me go out and try to figure out what more there could be”. That’s when I did some of the self-assessment tools. It really was, I would say, my values catching up with me to say, “Okay, so now I’ve made a lot of money. Okay, so now I have this important title. Okay”. And then saying, “Wait a minute. Is that who I am?” Thinking, that’s not who I am, there’s got to be something different.

Avocationist: Did you go to the Highlands Program? Is that how you hooked up with those guys at that point?

Angelina: Yes. I actually went. I took the Highlands Program.

Avocationist: How did that help you?

Angelina: Their abilities battery said that one of the things that I would excel in was selling. I had never had a sales job in my life. I basically said to them "either you believe your test or you don’t".

Avocationist: That’s a good one.

Angelina: I said, if you believe your test, then you hire me as your Director of Business Development. If you don’t believe your test, you say to me, “well you don’t have any sales experience Angelina”. By the time I left Highlands the franchise that I worked for was one of the highest revenue generators in the country. That test was right, I’m very good at sales.

Avocationist: Yes. They should have known that by how you asked for that job.

Angelina: Yeah, I basically showed them my test scores and said, “Look it says the top five things I do best is sell”.

Another point about me is that I have a tendency to leave careers before I hate them. It's almost like a fear. If I do this a little bit longer, I’m not going to like it anymore.

Avocationist: That's interesting because I don't think most people do that.

Angelina: I leave it just a little sooner, rather than later. I work with a lot of people in the coaching work who are in career transition.

I think people’s biggest complaint is they waited too long. They knew they should get out, a year ago, and they hate it now. It’s interesting, because I’ve always erred on the other way. I usually get out a year too soon because I’m afraid I’m going to hate it. And I don't want to hate it.

Avocationist: How did you pick computer programming?

Angelina: Well, again, it was intellectually - it looked very challenging to me. It was in the mid-70’s. Most of my life, I’ve been very left-brain. I’ve been very logical and very analytical. It was in the 70’s, and the whole computer industry was really starting to explode. I just took an introductory class in it and really just loved it. It very much appealed to that very logical, analytical side. I have an undergraduate minor in mathematics and it just really appealed to the logical stuff in me. I said, “Oh, this could be interesting”, because it’s this up and coming field. I have a tendency like nascent industries. I like to show up in an industry when it’s first starting and so there aren’t a whole lot of rules. There’s a whole lot of opportunities. It’s the area of my life that I am very much a risk taker. I think that’s the other really interesting thing about career transition. I think people are afraid that if they find a job and they don’t like it, “Oh my God, it’s the end of the world”. It’s like, “Well, no. If you take a job and you don’t like it, go find another one”. It may not happen easily, and in today’s economy it’s especially hard. But, you can go about finding the other one.

Avocationist: How did your transition to computer programming happen?

Angelina: That career transition I made by going back to school. I’ve made other career transitions where I have not gone back to school, but I’ve actually done pro bono work for organizations. Most people will say, “How do you get from one career to the next?”

Avocationist: Yes - that's a big challenge for many people.

Angelina: If you want to radically change, number one I’ve gone back to school. The other way I’ve done it is to provide pro bono services in the industry where I’m interested in going. Or in a field where I’m interested in going. When I wanted to get into school reform, I had been working on Wall Street. I found an organization that needed some consulting services and I offered them pro bono consulting services, but they were in the school reform business.

They were in school reform. They wanted some computer consulting services. And, I was willing to give them computer consulting services, free, because it gave me an opportunity to network in this area of school reform. I wound up giving pro bono services to three different organizations and wound up with three job offers to make the career transition. The pro bono work gave me the opportunity to meeting with people in the industry and learn the language of the industry.

The other thing I have found very useful in making career transitions is attending a whole bunch of seminars and conferences. It wasn’t really school. I didn’t get a new degree. I found, and this is when I got in to coaching, I went to the International Coach Federation Conference. Then I took a couple of classes. I did a couple of networking events. Again, I’m usually somebody who goes and does something as a way to make a career transition.

Avocationist: Yeah. You said you’ve mostly gotten in to these new fields. How do you find out about them? Is it something that you go look for? Or do you usually find it just occurring to you, or do you run across it?

Angelina: I’m somebody who pays attention to trends. One of the careers I think I should have someday is to figure out how to get paid money for the fact that I can spot trends. I don’t know if anybody would pay me for that.

When I first got in to coaching and I went to the International Coaching Federation Conference. I think there were maybe 200 people at the conference. Now everybody and his brother has a coach.

Avocationist: Yeah. Exactly.

Angelina: Its like, when I first started doing it, people would say to me, “What’s a coach? How did you find out about that?” It’s like, “Okay, this sounds like brand new”.

In the next segment, Angelina talks about how even the "stuff that felt lousy" had a purpose.

“That was probably the hardest transition because I had to let go of the idea that I was not doing something the rest of my life.”

This is the second of our five-part interview. Find out more about Angelina and Vocationing at www.themobiuscompany.com

Read the interview:

Avocationist: Of all these transitions, were any of them particularly difficult for you or were there other things going on in your life with any of them that helped to push some of them?

Angelina: I think the single most difficult was when I left teaching.

Avocationist: How was it difficult?

Angelina: It was the most difficult because I had gotten in to teaching after having as a young person, as a teenager. Most teenagers babysat. I didn’t. I tutored. As a teenager, I knew that what I wanted to be when I grew up was a teacher.

When I got in to teaching, I thought I was going to die being a teacher. I worked for the New York City school system. I had a retirement fund. I was ready to teach the rest of my life. That was probably the hardest transition, because it was, “Oh my God. I have this job. I have this stable job. I thought I was always going to be a teacher. How could I possibly think I’m going to go do something else?”

Avocationist: When you were a teacher and you decided to change, what was it that made you leave teaching?

Angelina: I think I wound up leaving teaching because, to some extent, I got frustrated with the system.

I mean, if it was me and the kids and teaching, I might have been able to teach longer. The whole infrastructure of teaching, especially teaching in New York City which was one of the largest school districts in the country, just became overwhelming. With paperwork and details and it just wasn’t fun anymore.

I knew I was about a year away from hating it. I said, “Before I hate it, I’ve got to leave”.

Angelina: In some ways, it wasn’t as hard as it could have been because I did have a job while I was exploring the next career. I mean, I’ve had at least two or three career transitions where I left the old before I had the new. I had down time for a couple of months. But in that first change, I was a teacher while I was making the transition. I went back to school while I was teaching. I got a certificate in computer programming. Then I interviewed for a bunch of jobs.

Now, there are those who will point out that its almost 40 years later, and one of the way that I describe myself is as a teacher. I do training. Maybe all roads do lead to Rome.

I’ve found that at my core I’m probably a teacher more than I am anything else no matter what else I do. Whether it’s a facilitator, a storyteller, whatever it is. There is that teacher in me.

Angelina: That was probably the hardest transition because I had to let go of the idea that I was not doing something the rest of my life.

Avocationist: Are there people who have been especially helpful to you in your careers or along the way?

Angelina: I had two aunts pass away in the past year. For a variety of reasons, both of them were people who had no children and who went to work in the business world and they did so at a time when women basically didn’t do that.

Avocationist: So they were very different than what you saw around you.

Angelina: Women either were nurses or teachers and got married and stayed home with children. Both of these aunts did not do that. They went in to the business world. I thought about it when they both passed in the past year, that they had a tremendous influence on me in terms of thinking that as a woman, I could do anything I wanted to do.

Avocationist: That's a great message.

Angelina: I could do anything that I wanted to do. It never occurred to me that I couldn’t do certain things. For much of my career, I had been in male dominated industries, again, because I was very logical. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve moved much more in to right-brain areas. I have embraced the feminine. My aunts weren’t really mentors, but they were role models.

They were role models in some very profound ways.

Avocationist: That is so interesting. How much do you think, just the time that you grew up in - your generation, influenced what you ultimately did?

Angelina: I think my generation influenced me tremendously. I try to say this with some level of humility, I was someone who was very bright. In high school I excelled in the math and sciences. Despite the fact that I was maybe one of three or four handful of women in math classes. My generation nudged me into teaching. I was inclined because I liked teaching anyway, but there was nothing that was going to convince me in my generation not to be the teacher or a nurse. Even when I excelled in mathematics I was pushed more in that direction.

I was very influenced by that, initially. The second thing that my generation, I know that I was personally very, very influenced by the women’s movement.

Avocationist: How so?

Angelina: I had these role models in these two aunts. In the 1950’s and 60’s, and one of them even in the 40’s, they went out in to the working world. Then the women’s movement, and paying very much attention and being very influenced by that, made me pay a lot of attention to career transition and really just, “Okay, there’s nothing I can’t do. I can just go do this. Now I can go do this. Now I can go do this”.

Avocationist: Yeah.

Angelina: I know my career was very, very much shaped by that. Being that I used to be more of a “type-A” personality (I’m not anymore). With the type-A personality, I would just take on one challenge after the next, just, “Okay, next career, what’s the next career. How do we more of it. How do we do it better”.

Avocationist: How did that impact your view of work?

Angelina: Really as women, you were was driven in some ways to pay attention to those you are, what your job is. Instead of saying, “I’m Mrs. Jones”, which is what our mothers would say. They would take pride in their husbands and their children. Instead, my generation substituted the job for the husband and children and the job became your relationship.

Avocationist: Right. Like the traditional male model at that time too.

Angelina: Yeah.

Avocationist: Do you remember anything that you wanted to be when you were a little child?

Angelina: Oh, absolutely. I wanted to be an actress.

Avocationist: Awesome.

Angelina: Wanted to be an actress. I had the good fortune, several years ago of bringing a production of “The Vagina Monologues” to Charlotte. I got to be at Spirit Square, center stage, and I was an actress. I can die now. I mean, I’ve done it all.

Avocationist: An actress. Did you want to be anything else when you were a kid?

Angelina: A lawyer.

Avocationist: Okay. You haven’t done that yet.

Angelina: I haven’t done that yet. I don’t think I’m ever going to be a lawyer. The actress piece, it’s just because I love the draw of the crowd and the smell of the greasepaint. That is just wonderful. I could be addicted to that kind of stuff. I used to be. Not anymore, but I used to be addicted to that.

Avocationist: How about the law?

Angelina: I was interested in being a lawyer, because I love the nuances of seeing two sides to of an argument, or just the position of opinions. I just love the duality of that stuff. I love seeing how it’s not really the opposites and you think they’re the opposites, but they’re not the opposites.

That’s the aspect of law I really like. But I don’t think I’m going to do that. Those are the two things I wanted to be, an actress and a lawyer.

In the next segment, Angelina talks about her success in the Corporate World and discovering a the need for more change: Angelina's "Is this all there is?" moment.

"I think part of the challenge when people make career transitions is they are convinced there is one job that does everything."

Avocationist talked to her in January, 2008 about her careers, how she’s pursued finding a fit in multiple roles and how she’s learned to be more present.

This is the first of our five-part interview. Find out more about Angelina and Vocationing at www.themobiuscompany.com

Read the interview:

Avocationist: Let me start out. If I can get you to tell me what you do for a living now.

Angelina: I am currently a facilitator, coach, teacher and story teller. I provide those services to companies and individuals or groups who wish to live intentional lives.

Avocationist: What do you mean by intentional lives?

Angelina: I like to work with organizations where individuals are making very intentional, conscious choices about what they’re feeling, what they’re thinking, what they’re doing, how they’re responding. I prefer working with individuals in groups who are conscious and intentional about the things that they are about and about the things around them.

Avocationist: Okay. You said you have four jobs right now.

Angelina: Yes.

Avocationist: Tell me about that. How did you get to that point?

Angelina: It’s very interesting. I think I had mentioned to you I had written an article a number of years ago called “Vocationing”.

Avocationist: Which you sent to me, thank you for that by the way.

Angelina: The thought is that, society and especially the American culture, would have us do a JOB. What happens is we try to find the thing that we think best suits us. Sometimes it is the case is that we are multi-talented. We’re in a job that may use a certain percentage of our talents, but it doesn’t use all of our talents. We can express those talents in other ways; either through hobbies, or volunteer work, or things like that. I thought of this when crafting my last career, which was probably about ten years ago. I’m in this career the longest of any career I’ve been in.

Avocationist: What do you mean by "crafting" your career?

Angelina: I crafted it in such a way that it would utilize a lot of the different talents I have. The coaching gives me the opportunity to be one on one and very personal and very intimate. It uses those talents of making connections with people, really working on the feeling level. The facilitation really plays to the fact that I enjoy working in a group, in larger settings, in the corporate setting and in the business world. The story telling is a little bit about the fact that as I’ve gotten older I enjoy writing more, which is a very solitary function. Each of the roles play a little bit to the personality differences, the mood differences and different talents that I have. As a facilitator I don’t deal with content at all, I deal with the process of the group. Whereas when I’m training, I deal with content. As a writer I deal with both. The different jobs really give me a chance to draw on different talents without having to limit myself to just one.

Avocationist: What were you going through when you made that last job transition? That seems to have worked out well because it’s the longest job you’ve have.

Angelina: A number of things. I did specifically take a number of personality or style tests. I did take tests to tell me what my interests were. I did take tests to tell me my personal style, my Myers-Brigg type. I did take a test that measured my abilities. I took those tests to really help me see areas where I was tending to be naturally good. For example, what are the things that I might have known intuitively but I didn’t know concretely that would be good areas for me to pursue. As those things unfolded and I learned from those tests, I said, “Okay, it’s not so far fetched that I could be a teacher and a coach and meld those things together”.

Avocationist: What was it about the tests that helped you figure that you could meld things? Or what was your experience?

Angelina: I think it was the process of looking at all of the different skills and abilities along with my personal style. I went through an exercise using the Highlands Program that really had me do almost a mind map of my abilities. Having all of these skills and abilities, how do I put them together in such a way that can come up with something that suits all of the things that I figured out.

Avocationist: It was the intentional process that you used that helped you look at all the pieces at one time?

Angelina: Very, very intentional. It was interesting because it was the first time that I had done that. I’ve made any number of career changes over the years, but in some ways when I would make the career changes it was usually because one particular talent was pulling me and I had ignored it. The example I’ll use is as a teacher, I really played to that ability to work with groups and to interact and to work on content and be in large groups. I was very happy being a teacher. I left that career and got in to a job as a computer programmer, which feels like the exact opposite.

Avocationist: It does.

Angelina: At it turns out, as a programmer, what I was really getting was very logical problem solving which wasn’t necessarily something that I got a lot in teaching, which is not very logical. You have to be on your feet and answering questions and you never know what kids are going to say next. I guess at the end of teaching, I didn’t realize it, but I was pursuing a career that felt much more in my control and much more logical. Then I left that and went to the next field and it was, again, something that was very different. Each time I made the change it really was whatever ability was screaming at me the loudest. Rather than stepping back and looking at it, and say, “Okay, what are all of these things I’ve got to take in to account and how do I meld them in to what feels like something that can satisfy more of the things that I needed satisfied”.

Avocationist: Can you walk me through all of your careers? I love that list.

Angelina: Okay. I started as a teacher of mathematics. I left that, went back to school and became a computer programmer. I left that and became a controller. I left that and became a consultant on Wall Street. I left that and got involved in a university in school reform. I left that and became the head of human resources for an IT company. I left that and became a business development person for a company, the Highlands Ability. I became business and development sales marketing person. I left that and went in to business for myself. I think that’s all of them. I am not sure if I missed any.

Angelina: I feel very lucky and blessed that I’ve had this career now for ten years that satisfies so many of the needs and plays on so many of my talents and uses so many of my skills. I’ve also come to realize that I really do need hobbies and volunteer work for some of them. The example I’ll use is, I just really love this whole world of decorating and cooking.

Things that have to do very tactilely, with colors and tastes. There was a time when I was convinced that my next career was going to be as a chef. It really was because that was the piece that wasn’t being satisfied.

Avocationist: Is that next?

Angelina: Today I realize that that’s probably not the right next career for me. But that is a piece of who I am and it has got to find a way in to either a hobby or my volunteer work or something I do. So I think part of the challenge when people make career transitions is they are very often convinced there is one job that does everything. And, they ignore the fact that there might be a job that does most of it, or a career that does most of it, but you’ve got to pay attention to the hobbies and the volunteer work and the avocations. Otherwise, you may not get it all from one career.

Avocationist: Right. And if you’re multi-talented then it’s even harder.

Monday: How can one person enjoy teaching, sales and facilitation? Finding the common thread in childhood interests…