Note: In the last post, I introduced the idea of Going Pro without Quitting Your Day Job. In this second part, I cover the benefits. Part 3 will show how you can Go Pro.
--
My palms were sweaty and my voice was about two octaves higher than normal as I dialed the phone. I was just hoping that I wouldn’t sound like a total idiot.

I had landed the first big interview for my new website Avocationist.com. In a few minutes I’d be talking to an author who had sold more than 2 million books. He was someone I had watched on TV. His financial advice had helped my wife and me learn how to save for retirement. And he had agreed to talk to me!

His phone rang. And rang. And rang.

And then I got his voicemail…

Gulp. “HeyDaveIt’sAllanBaconI’mcallingforourinterview.”

Now I had to wait for him – would he call? And – oh crap – I can’t record the interview if I don’t call him from my skype account!

Welcome to the world of Going Pro - moments of panic followed by intense learning and massive satisfaction…

What did I get from this experience? Flash forward to an hour later.

The interview was safely recorded. And even though I had been nervous and still had a lot to learn, I realized that I had broken through some invisible barrier I had previously created.

After this experience with Dave, I began to believe that I could interview anyone – maybe not that day or the next, but I could see myself getting there.

But that was just the first of many other benefits. Here are some of the others:

Just by taking action, I opened up other opportunities.

The interview with Dave wasn’t some bold move on my part. It really came about through some unwarranted cockiness on my part. After I finished an interview with one of my friends, I was feeling good, so I started started thinking big about who I might approach.

Dave’s book was on my bookshelf, so I Googled him to see what he was up to. I found out that his career had taken some surprising and unusual turns since I had read the book. I emailed him on a lark to see if he would talk with me.

Ten minutes later, he responded by email: “sure.”

I was stuck.

I have experienced a momentum that ramps up if you let it. Call it synchronicity, purpose or a higher calling, but I got pulled to do something that I would never have believed that I could do (and it went fine).

My skills increased very quickly.

From my first to my second to my third interview, each one got easier to do. I was more comfortable and less nervous and more able to go with the natural flow of the conversation.

I loved parts of it – even some that I didn’t know about.

I loved doing the interviews. I guess it shouldn’t have been a surprise but there was a good reason that I was interested in interviewing people – it felt a lot like what I did all the time when I met people. Going Pro just helped me to consciously start to build some additional skills on top of what I already had been practicing my whole life.

I hated parts of it – even some that I didn’t know about.

One of the biggest lessons of Going Pro is that you can’t skip any of the required steps.

One of these was transcription. I loved doing the interviews, but hated dealing with them afterwards. First I tried for an automated system – until I found out they don’t exist yet. Then I found out about elance.com and hired a few transcriptionists. I ended up with a great partner (who ended up transcribing my entire book).

You will quickly find that some parts you will like, some you won’t mind, and some you will need to work around.

Going Pro is a starting point, not a destination.

Going Pro doesn’t mean that you will necessarily stay with what you started with.

Some things you will try just won’t work. My original idea for the website was to publish the full interviews in a Q&A format. I assumed that others would be interested in getting to “meet” these cool people I was talking to. But what I discovered was that people really were looking for me to distill down what I had learned for them.

That led to writing which led to a book and talks and this post.

Going Pro is a necessary stepping stone to things you will love that you can’t even imagine now.

That interview with Dave was also a watershed event for me. It was the first time I was exposed to the business of writing and speaking. A big part of our interview was on how he developed and grew his business. It planted a seed in my mind that would grow and morph into what I’m doing now. But I could never have gone straight from where I was to where I am now without this step of Going Pro.

Going Pro isn’t all about work.

I began to realize that the people I was interviewed really enjoyed the experience, too. They were learning about their own lives in the process of talking with me about them. My interviews were a kind of gift to the people I was talking to.

And I was creating new friendships. Since I started the site, I have met several of my interviewees after our initial phone calls. I even had dinner in California with one of my Avocationists and his wife. I’m still in touch with most of them. It’s been a great way to expand my experience to include a greater variety of people.

I could fit in a lot around my job if I was patient and willing to be creative.

It was much easier than I thought to work in my interviews. It took planning. It also took patience to realize that sometimes the website would need to be dropped for a couple of weeks while I was busy with work or family. But I was having enough fun and positive feedback from the experience to keep plugging away at it.

How can you Go Pro? In Part 3 of this series, I’ll present the 3 essential parts of Going Pro and give some ideas about how you can get started.

Photo courtesy thorinside via flickr.com

For most of my career, I was busy with work and the little remaining time was dedicated to my family. While this arrangement made me feel like I was taking care of everything, over time it left me feeling hollow.

Somehow I knew that the empty feeling was from not doing the things in life I was born to do.

When the pace would slow down a bit I would think up big plans for how I could fix my work or my life to fill that gap. But none of these dreams were practical – and deep down I didn’t believe that they would really fix things anyway.

Then one Saturday afternoon about ten years ago, I had a realization: I had been getting little signals all along about how to find what I was made to do. I just needed to follow my spark.

It happened when I took this photo of my daughter.

The little teardrop under Meg’s left eye took my breath away. I didn’t know why, but luckily I decided to do more photography.

I've since realized that it wasn’t because I was meant to only do photography.

But the photography tapped into the spark in me. It was the start of a great journey.

Following the photography led to amazing growth in my life. I met new friends. I took some beautiful photos of my daughters. I learned a lot about myself. Through more than a few ups and downs, photography taught me how to learn new things without going to school and without having to stop working or being a good dad and husband.

Through these and other paths, seeds were planted that helped shape what I get to do now: At a photography school in the mountains of North Carolina I shared a room with 70-year old Bob and learned how he managed a sane career at GE. In a photography group I learned about Photoshop but also met the blogger who inspired Avocationist.com.

You are not meant to feel like you are missing something inside.

When you start paying attention to your spark, that hollow ache will go away immediately. In its place will be energy and hope. And they lead to inspiration and ideas.

Here are some places to pay attention: What makes your heart beat faster? What stores always grab your eye? Whom do you admire?

Follow those impulses and find your spark.

7:06 pm at the Hilton. Running late from work. Pay my $15. Put on nametag. Gulp. Walk into a ballroom of strangers standing around chatting. Everyone knows someone but me. Crap. Maybe I’ll just stand in the corner…

Have you ever experienced the "yuck" factor of networking? Do you feel like you have to pretend to be someone different to make new contacts? Do you feel guilty about bothering people you'd like to meet?

I did too. Then I learned that networking was something I already knew how to do.

I just had to forget everything I'd read about the "right way" to connect with people.

Instead of fearful cold calls or sweaty-palmed handshakes, think about lunch with an old friend.

What do you talk about? Maybe how she is doing, what's going on in her life, or how her work is.

You share a new recipe or a restaurant recommendation. She gives you the name of a book that can help with your business. You remember that she loves painting and offer to introduce her to your neighbor who owns a gallery.

You have fun. You re-connect. You share.

Afterwards, you feel great and you've both helped out a good friend and built on your relationship.

Guess what? That's all there is to "networking".

It's how I've met best-selling authors, friends all over the world and how I've learned most every cool thing I've ever done.

But I also tried the networking receptions, the cold-calling and the mercenary focus on "what's in it for me?". None of these did much for me other than make me feel like a loser. It's really no wonder that networking has such a scary connotation.

If you want to find a new job, a mentor or just meet some cool new people, here are three tips for guilt-free (and fun) networking:

1. Skip networking meetings and start with your friends

You are only a few degrees of separation from most anyone you'd ever want to meet. Instead of trying to impress strangers in artificial 30-second meet-and-greets, reconnect with old friends, colleagues or neighbors.

2. Unless you just love networking, don't do it until you have a specific reason

When you are looking for a job or trying to get new clients, networking is the best way to find openings and new opportunities. Networking is also a great way to find the best daycare or guitar teacher.

But unless you just love meeting people, don't add it to your list of "things I really should be doing". Just wait until you have a specific reason to expand your connections - it will make it easier for your friends to help you find the information you need anyway.

3. Focus on helping - even when you most need help

This is the cure-all to your nerves and guilt about connecting with people you haven't talked to in a long time. The trick is to prepare ahead of time with a quick list of ways you might be able to help the person you will be meeting with. Check out their website or facebook page. What do they like? Who do you know that they might like to meet?

When you do this pre-work, you'll be primed to be in "helping mode" and less focused on your own needs. And even if you can't think of anything to offer, remember that a genuine note of thanks afterwards is an excellent gift of gratitude.

Want to learn more? Sign up for my Authentic Networking teleseminar.

Did you like this post? You should sign up for my free monthly newsletter:

Here's a quick way to try out your secret dreams, create some new ideas and sow the seeds of your next adventure - all without leaving your desk.

Today I used it to feed my "travel jones" during lunch: I went to Brazil.

Here's my Lunch Break Dream Launch process:

1. Choose the first interest that pops into your head

Start the process with any dream you have - world travel, music, woodworking. Think quickly and capture the first things that come to mind.

Then write down what your dream is - it's fine to be vague, high-level and even a little crazy at this point. You might want to go to every country in the world or play clarinet at Carnegie Hall or learn how to call square dances. The only requirement is to actually write the idea down.

Then, spend 10 minutes on Google searching for the main words in your dream - for example, "world travel", "clarinet", "square dancing".

2. Get more specific to get more creative

As you get results back, follow your instincts and click on any site that draws your attention. For example, if you like movies and travel, you might do a search and remember that you've always wanted to go to the Cannes Film Festival.

Then do a search on that more specific version of your dream. Look for the details you would need to make a good plan.

Maybe Cannes is too far off for now. But find out when it is. (It's in May and the weather is lovely - I checked).

Maybe you don't have the money to pay for a fancy hotel on the Cote d'Azur or to rent a yacht in the harbor. So search some travel sites to see if there are creative ways to get there - Can you volunteer? Can you offer to lead a tour group? Can you get a pass from a small film production company?

As you begin to dig for details, you'll start to broaden the list of ways you can experience your dreams.

3. When you get stuck, blow it up

If you get stuck or bored, take a different direction.

You could see what other film festivals are going on - there are several in the US. Find one near a city where you have a friend or relative (= free place to stay).

Or think about the "pieces" of your dream. When you think about "Film Festivals", what does that bring to mind?

Is part of it seeing interesting movies? Then find out what is showing at your local Art Theatre or University. Leave work on time one day this week and catch the 7pm show.

Is part of it sharing your perspective? Write a review of the movie.

Is part of it the thrill of interacting with other film buffs? Send a note to the film's director with your feedback.

4. Tangents can become your new path in life

Traveling to South America is on my list of dreams, so today I searched for cities in Brazil and Argentina. While looking for cheap ways to travel, I stumbled across a website called "couchsurfing.org" with a list of people who would let me crash at their houses for free. I searched not just in Brazil, but also in California (where I'm headed on a business trip soon). Then I went to Orbitz and researched flight schedules and costs.

With each new piece of information, I'm building on a plan that can someday soon get me to South America. And I know I'll be able to do it while managing my household budget and my other responsibilities.

See how it goes?

5. What's in it for you

Now, I may not take this particular trip to Brazil. And that's perfectly fine. Even if I never make it there, my Lunch Break Dream Launch has given me some powerful benefits:

I spent time on me. I got to do something just for fun and I broke up the monotony of a regular day.

I focused my brain on what matters to me. Even when I stopped doing the search, there was part of my mind that was still thinking and scheming and planning.

I motivated myself to keep going. Now that I've started planning, I am looking forward to my next 15 minute break where I can find out more and take the next steps.

Did you like this post? You should sign up for my free monthly newsletter:

On my first trip to Hong Kong, I learned that they can be great times to try out new interests - the first step towards developing your calling.

Nick Williams’ career as an author began in 1999 with the release of his first book The Work We Were Born To Do and he has recently started a new online community called the Inspired Entrepreneur.

Nick began his working life selling computers in London. In the midst of this successful career, he found himself sitting on a beach in Antigua asking “is it worth it?”.

In this first of a two-part interview, Nick talks about his “A-ha!” moment and the steps he took to begin changing his career.

Read on to find Nick’s thoughts on:

1. How to start a change while working
2. How to face internal resistance to change
3. How to be an entrepreneur without being a jerk

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: Tell me what you do for a living.

Nick: I suppose I would call myself a renaissance soul because there is not just one thing I do. I coach people, give talks, run workshops, and do broadcasting. I’m a writer and I create information products about helping people find what they really love to do. I have created a whole little business around it. That seems to be my area of specialty.

Avocationist: Could you tell me a little bit about how you got to where you are right now?

Nick: In the UK I followed a fairly conventional educational and career path. I did all my exams and then I completed a degree at University in business studies. It was my way of delaying the decision of what to do with the rest of my life. So in my early 20’s I went into sales and marketing for a few years and had 3 different jobs doing varying aspects of sales and marketing. The last one was working for a big company called Digital selling computers to Japanese banks in the city of London. By my late 20’s I started to realize that although I had enjoyed it, I did not enjoy it anymore. On the surface I was reasonably successful, but in a deeper emotional and spiritual level, I was very unhappy. It just led me to question a lot of things in my own life. Often we find out what we want to do by being unhappy in what we are doing. So that was my route, experiencing frustration and unhappiness.

Avocationist: Was there any particular event or one time when you realized “Wow; I have to make a change…” or did that occur over time?

Nick: I had two “Road to Damascus” moments. The first was in my second job. I had actually done very well and had very high sales, so they sent me to Antigua for a week. It was wonderful. I was on the beach in Antigua drinking a Red Stripe beer. I was in paradise, but in my own mind, I wasn’t in paradise at all. I was in hell because I was thinking, “I don’t really want to go back there. If this is what success is about, it is lovely but… I had to pay such a high price for it all. Is it worth it?” So that was one time that I thought, “I know I can’t carry on with this for too much longer.” However, it was probably about three to four years before I actually did leave.

“This guy is living on the streets and he is telling me to cheer up”

Then when I was back in London I had moved to another job in sales and marketing and I specifically remember the place in London. If you ever get to London there is a place called The Embankment which is down by the River Thames. My office wasn’t too far away from there. I took some time there one day because at that moment I was just so fed up with being in the office. I had to get out of there and decided that I needed to go for a walk. So I went down for a walk on the Embankment and I suddenly heard this voice call out to me. Somebody said to me, “Cheer up, mate.” I was obviously looking miserable and unhappy, but when I turned around, it was a homeless guy telling me to cheer up. I thought, “This guy is living on the streets telling me to cheer up. I’m a guy with a great job, a BMW, and a nice flat and he is telling me to cheer up. There is something not right here.” That was the other time when I thought, “Hang on. Something is not right with me and my life here.”

Avocationist: So how did you go about making a change at that point?

Nick: My first venture was into my own kind of counseling and a bit of therapy for myself. That was my inroad to personal change. I suppose many people, once they go to counseling or therapy, they think, “Maybe I will become a counselor or become a therapist.” I suppose I went down that route a bit. I thought I would love to share with other people what I had learned and what had been helpful to me, but I don’t think I really wanted to be a counselor or a therapist. I knew I wanted to become somebody who could help other people. Even in the days of selling computers, I realized that there was a part of me that loved helping other people. I never grew out of that desire to help others and so found a way of curving that into my living. I paid for it myself.

Avocationist: What did you do first once you realized that? How did you get started helping people?

Nick: The first area I became immersed in, which I found most helpful, was an area called transactional analysis; TA. There was a woman I found out about called Julie Hay. She helped people to use transactional analysis in an organizational context. So I did some training with her, and she would help me find a day or two of work. I would disappear from my job one day and reappear at the London Bureau of Bromley running a day of time-management training using TA. The next day I would jump back to my job as a computer salesman.

“I realized that when I was doing these presentations, I really loved it”

But I realized that when I was doing these presentations, I really loved it and it really gave me an experience of what it was like to present and share ideas, and I thought, “Yes; I really love doing this. If I could put this at the center of my life, I would like to do this.” So I got a taste of it, but I didn’t really have a plan. All I knew is that I needed to follow my heart because it was getting too painful not to.

“Looking back on it, I am probably embarrassed by how many mistakes I made, but luckily I didn’t dwell on it at the time”

Eventually I quit my job and followed my heart. I have probably made so many mistakes, but gradually became clearer about how to do it. I do not come from any kind of entrepreneurial background and I had no idea how to run my own business, let alone run a business that had deep meaning to me. So looking back on it, I am probably embarrassed by how many mistakes I made, but luckily I didn’t dwell on it at the time and I learned to swim. I have done quite well since then, in the long, long journey.

Avocationist: Did you just quit your job and start your own business, or did you kind of work into it?

Nick: A little bit. I had done a few tasters while I was still employed, but I didn’t really have a business plan. The concept that I know of now is the called “The Shadow Artist”. I don’t know if you have heard of, have you?

Avocationist: No I have not.

Nick: It is in one of Julia Cameron’s books. She wrote a book called The Artist’s Way, and it is a concept in her book. One of the things I did when I left my job was to start promoting other people who were more advanced in the world of personal development than I was. It was a good thing because it helped me to get a bit of profile and to make connections. Looking back on it, I realize it was also a great way of hiding out and doing what Julia Cameron calls being “A Shadow Artist.” This is someone who has not gained the courage to put their own creativity at the center of their lives and is more interested in supporting other people. It is a double-edged situation; on the one hand it was helpful, and on the other hand it was a great way of hiding out. It took me a number of years to realize that I wanted to be the one with my own voice and my own message - not just promoting the voice and the message of other people.

Avocationist: What was the first time you got to present your own voice or your own message?

Nick: I did a little bit of it for years, but after that I got involved in an organization called “Alternatives.” They are a mind/body/spirit personal development organization that provides lectures in this area. Alternatives has been around in London for about 26 years now and I have been involved for about 21 years. Because I had a passionate interest in the world of personal growth and personal development, it was a great way of immersing myself in that area. But once again, it was the realization that I wanted to be the one giving the talks with my own voice rather than promoting other people and their voices and their messages. It was probably about 12 years ago that I grasped the idea of being a Shadow Artist. There was a part of me hiding out and I needed to be the one speaking and writing and coaching. It was then that I started writing seriously for the first time - I realized that I had my own voice that I wanted to find and then give expression to it.

Avocationist: You have published a number of books; is that when you started writing your first book?

Nick: Yes. My first book came out 9 years ago, but I started to engage in writing seriously about 12 years ago now when I realized it felt wonderful to give a platform to the voices of other people. I realized that I had my own voice, which I was a bit in touch with, but not deeply in touch with. My first book was called The Work We Were Born To Do. One of the things that I talk about a lot is that when we follow our heart I believe two things happen. One, amazing things happen: doors open and connections get made. I also think that when we follow our heart a “resistance” kicks in. Resistance is all of those inner voices who are our own betrayers who say, “Well, who do you think you are to do anything like this? Get back in your box. No one will want to listen to you.”

“The resistance for me was thinking, ‘Oh yeah; I am going to write a book and people are going to read it and get something from it’”

So my personal journey of following my heart for almost 18 years has been following a sense of inspiration, but also having to learn to deal with massive resistance. The resistance for me was thinking, “Oh yeah; I am going to write a book and people are going to read it and get something from it.” It seemed like the ultimate act of arrogance. “Who would ever want to listen to me? What have I got to say that hasn’t been said better by tons of other people?” So to anybody listening to this or reading this here is my advice: I don’t recommend that you trust your own sense of resistance to your calling that seems arrogant and crazy. It is perhaps your own calling that you need to bring into existence.

“I have been utterly thrilled and probably shocked myself on just how much it has touched people and how many people have related to what I had to write about”

I did go through all my own resistance and then I started writing. I showed my work to a few publishers and then one said, “Yes; I would like to publish your book.” I am thrilled to bits to say that it is still in print 9 years later, which is pretty amazing for a personal development book that usually goes out of print in a year or two. I have been utterly thrilled and probably shocked myself on just how much it has touched people and how many people have related to what I had to write about. I am a great believer that all of us have great talents and great gifts to share, but most of them never get to see the light of day because our own resistance gets the better of us.

Avocationist: It’s interesting that it is almost directly proportional to how close you get to something real that the strength of the resistance is much stronger, isn’t it?

Nick: Yes, and many people think that they are crazy when they experience that. I find it helpful that just as you say, the closer you get to your calling, the bigger the resistance you are likely to feel, but that doesn’t mean you are off track. It actually means you are on track. I don’t know if you have heard of it, but a book that I recommend to anybody who is interested and can resonate with what we are talking about here, is a book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

Avocationist: It is all about creativity and what artists go through. People who are not formal artists don’t understand that your life and what you do is a work of art and you go through those same things that people struggle with.

Nick: Yes, I have 5 books out now.

Avocationist: You said you have a mix of things you do right now with coaching, speaking, and writing; which of those are your favorites or what do you think you are called to do the most?

Nick: I think the truth is that I am called to be a communicator. I am called to get messages out and to some extent, there is no one way of doing it that I prefer. People often think that they are supposed to find one thing and stick with it. I think for many of us we are what I would call renaissance souls. One of the things that I talk about when I help other people make changes is that this is not the case. I have one big passion, which is communicating, and inspiring and educating people, but I have a number of different ways that I have of doing that. None of them is something I want to do every day. What I like about my life is the variety. I like that one day I am giving a talk and then the next day I am at home writing, and the next day I am running a workshop for 100 people. I like that I am on the radio talking to other people, but I wouldn’t want to do any of them full time, but I love doing all of them some of the time.

Avocationist: Have you had any challenges on juggling that or explaining that to people?

Nick: Not so much in terms of juggling. I don’t have children. I have a long-term partner, and so in terms of time-management I probably work less than I have ever worked. What I do is a bit more strategic than it used to be. I used to run around like a headless chicken and I don’t do that quite so much now.

“I am a great believer that you can build a business around your own lifestyle”

Sometimes I travel to give workshops and I do a lot of coaching by phone so I don’t have to commute. I am a great believer that you can build a business around your own lifestyle, and I certainly have chosen to build a business around the lifestyle I want. I don’t work as hard as I used to; I probably touch more people and help more people than I ever have done, but with the internet these days, you can reach a lot of people much more easily than actually going out and meeting them one-on-one like you had to do in the past.

“One of the things that I do is talk about is other ways of being entrepreneurial and call it a heart-felt or inspired entrepreneur”

What I am doing now, and I just literally launched it in the last week or two, is that I believe it is so important that people get on-going support for their dreams. What I have realized is that when people discover the work that they were born to do, not always, but often it does lead them to starting their own business. Yet many of the role models that we have for entrepreneurial development are very competitive more in the line of the 1980’s Gordon Gekko, like Donald Trump. Many people that are doing something that they love just don’t relate to those ideas of being entrepreneurial. One of the things that I do is talk about is other ways of being entrepreneurial and call it a heart-felt or inspired entrepreneur. So now we are launching a community. We just launched a free level of it and now we are launching a premium level of it called the “Inspired Entrepreneur’s Community” or “Inspired Entrepreneur’s Club.” It creates ongoing support, encouragement, and dialog for people to discover what they really want to do and then turn that into their own little business. If you link to “Inspiredentrepreneur.com” people can join up for free and get that ongoing support from myself and other people in the process of building a business around a passion.

Avocationist: I think that is great. I also think it is a great way to have people help you with the resistance because they can see it.

Nick: Yes, because we can usually get away with resistance on our own, but we wouldn’t get away with it in the presence of peers.

A military officer. A minister. A politician. A track coach. While these may sound like four different people, Jim Watkins has worn all these hats in his 65 years. Each path has been vastly different, but the common thread through them all his Jim’s ability to lead and organize, notably as District Director for Congressman Ben Jones, “Cooter” from the Dukes of Hazzard TV show.

In the second half of a two-part interview, Jim discusses how he discovered which type of job he belonged in, and shares his advice to those searching for the right career path. (Photo courtesy of brookenovak)

“I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life.”

Take-Aways

Sometimes the best part of an experience is what you don’t like: Jim learned as an undergraduate that he would not want to pursue a business career. Read his story about his military service: you don’t have to worry about having every job being a perfect fit for your skills.

Find your comfort zone: Jim has realized that he is more of a start-up person that one who maintains. Read about how this influenced the way he approached his job on the faculty of a major Seminary.

Realize that you won’t be in this job forever: Jim provides a powerful example of leadership in how he approaches any new role: he goes in knowing that he won’t stay there forever. Read how this changed his view when asked to start a 12-month-only job.

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: You said early in your life, when you were changing schools and trying things out, you knew what you liked and what you didn’t like. How did you know what you liked and what you didn’t like?

Jim: I was at Georgia Tech on an athletic scholarship. I took a battery of interest tests every year when I was trying to think about what I was going to do after school. What it does is compare your interests with the interests of other people in various fields. My lowest score was always the President of Manufacturing Concern. Here I was a Georgia Tech studying industrial management. I knew that profit maximization in the long run did not excite me. I did not want to make a lot of money. One of the things that I had to be careful about, because you have to look at the downside as well as the upside of things, is that you have to make enough money, but I didn’t want to see my job in life making as much money as I could. That pointed me in the direction of some fields where that was not the prime motivator. That is why I became a military officer and it was attractive. That’s why law, and I probably would have gone into public interest law, was attractive. That is why public administration was attractive. I didn’t see myself as being in the private profit sector.

“So for whatever reason, in terms of my interests being developed, I would be happier in those fields that majored in social relationships whose end product was not maximizing profit.”

Those tests also said I had interests with people in the social fields. I did rank high compared to attorneys, social workers, teachers; that sort of thing. So for whatever reason, in terms of my interests being developed, I would be happier in those fields that majored in social relationships whose end product was not maximizing profit. So I kind of knew that from the get-go.

“I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life.”

I discovered that what I liked to do most was where I had freedom of decision. Where I could be myself and I didn’t have to fit any kind of mold and I could even be outrageous if I wanted to. So as I look back, I was seeking those fields. In those places where there were stereotypes of those kinds of people, perhaps like being a pastor, I found out that one of the gifts that I brought to that situation in those circumstances was that I was not going to be put in that mold. I was not going to be a pastor that always dressed a certain way and I was very fortunate to have a life partner that thinks that way, too. I have never done things because it was expected of me. I found that it has been a helpful approach to life. What I found in the public sector is that the trust is the currency. You can disagree with folks and you can even not like folks, but the bottom line is being able to trust what somebody says. I think by and large in life, I have been somebody who has had some integrity about who I am. What you see is what you get.

Avocationist: Of all the jobs you have done, which were your favorites?

Jim: I think my favorite job was being on faculty at Columbia Seminary. The reason is because I was helping to form approaches to ministry for students, and in the long run, perhaps making some systemic changes in the church. Institutionally, my loyalty is still to the church and there are so many clergy who are not involved in public matters. I had suggested that we develop an academy through Faith in the City. Unfortunately, my experience in the church has often been that there is a lack of courage on the part of clergy. I would like to think that in those four years that I was at Columbia Seminary that I came in contact with clergy, particularly young clergy, and that I helped to be a bit more courageous. That probably was my favorite one. I also had a great deal of freedom.

“Even within the context of churches, I enjoy being a start-up person. So you could say that in some ways, I am a ‘social entrepreneur.’”

One of the things about freedom, as I look back and realize what I really had done and done well, is that I have always been a start-up person. I started the program for the denomination; the Peacemaking Program. I started the program at Columbia Seminary. The program here with the York County Democratic Party; it was in bad shape and they never had monthly meetings. So in essence, I started a party. Even within the context of churches, I enjoy being a start-up person. So you could say that in some ways, I am a “social entrepreneur.”

Avocationist: That is a good title. Now were there any transitions that you went through that were particularly difficult?

Jim: I think it was more difficult for other people who were wondering if I had lost my mind. No, I didn’t feel it.

Avocationist: When you think back over your career, were there any people who were particularly helpful to you at different points?

Jim: One of my coaches at Tech, Dean Griffin, and also Dean of Students, taught me a lesson that I still teach my runners: “You have won if you have beaten yourself.” Competition in life is not about other people, but it is about yourself. If you have been able to look at yourself and say that “I did it. I conquered whatever was the fear in me” or “I maximized what I wanted to maximize,” that is what it is about.

“It is better to have folks you don’t trust close to you than at a distance.”

Going back even further, a scoutmaster when I was 12 years old gave me a copy of the poem “If” by Rudyard Kipling, which is all about change. I still give that poem out to folks along the way when they are having a rough time. I think those were key people early on for me. I think Ben Jones was key in that he was a recovering alcoholic. Ben had really good BS detectors, which helped him to remain sober. With Ben I developed a pretty good BS detector. Through that I learned with Ben that you don’t go away from with whom you detect there is some BS going on, but you keep them close to you. It is better to have folks you don’t trust close to you than at a distance. What clergy for example tend to do, is that when they have a run-in with somebody in the church, they get away from them and that is not what you are supposed to do. You are supposed to keep them close to you. As Lyndon Johnson said, and this was his language, not mine, “It is better to have people inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.” So keeping folks close that you really don’t trust.

“Unfortunately, I didn’t have a lot of role models growing up or in the church.”

I guess those are the people who have been key. If you notice, there is not a pastor in that list. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a lot of role models growing up or in the church. I respected those folks and could see some of the same things that I respected in leadership in them, but personally, there was not a role model within the church as clergy that I could identify with.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what they are trying to do?

Jim: First of all, ask yourself what interests you. Secondly, I would say, “What are your skills?” Then I would say if you are looking toward change, look toward an area that interests you and an area where you can take skills that you have now and put over into that area. Thirdly, I would say to develop a support system that is quite apart from what you are engaged in as a career.

Avocationist: What do you mean by a "support system"?

Jim: Throughout my career, I continued my running and had been a part of a track club. In life, you have to have perspective and you have to have distance from what you are doing for life’s work or a portion of your life’s work. Those folks who are not able to see the possibility of change are those folks who are so enmeshed in what they are doing right now that they see no other options. So whatever you can do to surround yourself from people and places and things that are apart from what you do 9-5, then that will help you gain perspective when it is time to change what you do from 9-5, It also provides a consistency. No matter what I was doing in my life, I always went out and ran and I competed and that gave me something that was consistent.

Avocationist: I think I know the answer to this question; do you have any regrets?

Jim: No.

Avocationist: I am not surprised. How would you like to be remembered?

Jim: I would like to be remembered as a person who people, except for my wife, see as unpredictable. She knows me pretty well and she sees the way I really am. I have been known to show up places and say things that cause people to take a second look at me.

Avocationist: What do you think you will do next?

Jim: I see myself as continuing to help develop young runners. I will probably do the political party thing one more two-year term and then let somebody else step in. By the way, one of the things that you learn and that I have taught my students is that the first thing you should think about when you enter into a situation is what this place is going to be like after I leave. I find that if you have that feeling that “I am not going to be here forever,” when you step into it, that helps everybody in the long run. The party will be stronger because I will be gone. The distance runners will be stronger if they can inculcate within themselves some lessons. I may run for office if there is a place for me. I wouldn’t mind being on the City Council in Rock Hill. I am going to be a grandfather for the first time in the fall. My greatest priority probably will be that; it will be family. I am looking forward to those things.

Avocationist: Thank you for speaking with me. I think your advice will be very helpful to those reading it.

Jim: Yes, it maybe will help people. You know, when I was jumping out of airplanes, I asked the Jump Master if you ever get over the fear of leaving the door of the airplane and he said, “No, and if you do, don’t jump.” I think part of what keeps people from doing changes that need to happen is just plain old fear, and sometimes you need somebody who can help jumpstart you and get you out the door. You can see that people survive.

Robin Wolaner is CEO and founder of Tee Bee Dee, an online community for people over 40. She’s had a very successful career in publishing starting with a part-time job at Penthouse magazine and later as founder of Parenting magazine which she sold to Time-Warner. There she launched Vibe and Martha Stewart Living.

In the second of our two-part interview, publishing expert Robin Wolaner discusses her favorite jobs, the common stereotypes of entrepreneurs and the importance of learning from your mistakes.

“Just because somebody doesn’t fit the stereotype of what an entrepreneur looks like, it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be good at it.”

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: You also wrote a book, Naked in the Boardroom: A CEO Bares Her Secrets So You Can Transform Your Career, in 2005. What was that experience like?

Robin: It was great. It’s in six languages and it is in paperback as well as hardcover. I am glad I don’t have to make a living as a writer because I didn’t make very much money. I did consider doing some speaking and consulting because the book gave me a lot of those opportunities, but what I found out about public speaking is that as much as I love it, it is sort of like “Groundhog Day;” you do the same thing over and over and over again. I didn’t really love it, but I am really proud of it. Some days my kids will read it. They are both capable of reading it now, but neither one has any interest. I am really happy I did it.

Avocationist: What made you want to write a book in the first place?

Robin: Well, my role at CNET had pretty much been to coach a generation of young people who had never worked before. It was an odd experience because when I left Time Warner, I was 42 and a year later I started at CNET. So I was 43 and I went from being the young Turk at Time Warner to being the seasoned veteran at CNET in only one year. Everybody was about 15 years younger than me at CNET. They were all sort of the same age; they are all in their late 30s now. A lot of my job was telling them what business was like.

“People kept saying, ‘You should write up your stories.’”

People kept saying, “You should write up your stories. You have been through so much and seen so much” and so on. Obviously I have a lot of friends in publishing from all of my years in it, so I talked to a couple of book publishers. They said there had not really been a general business advice book for women, so I geared it to women, even though my CNET experience had been with both genders. It was fun. I should have self-published it because then I could have controlled the marketing and distribution and sold more copies than they were able to, but I wanted to have a big name publisher behind me, so I made that decision.

Avocationist: It seems that the best situations for you were always some kind of company that was just beginning, whether or not you started it.

Robin: Yes. I did not start my own company until “Parenting.” I joined “Mother Jones” magazine just a few years after it launched and I joined “Runner’s World” for the national launch. The magazine had been out there already but it was local. “Penthouse” had been in the UK and they brought it over to the U.S. and I joined it very soon thereafter. So I like being around new things. It is more interesting to me.

Avocationist: What parts of the start-up kind of companies interest you?

Robin: I think start-ups are more fun in retrospect, so I say that to people at Tee Bee Dee all the time. I know that looking back on this, we are going to remember this as really wonderful. We are already nostalgic for our first office. So I think it is more in retrospect. I take tremendous satisfaction out of the fact that “Parenting” created a new kind of magazine and it employed a lot of people over a lot of years and that it took some chances.

Avocationist: Of all of the jobs you have done, which was your favorite?

Robin: “Parenting” for sure, although as I said, it does look better in retrospect. At the time that I launched “Parenting,” I was in an unhappy marriage and my father was diagnosed with cancer and died 16 months later; it was a really, really hard time. That being said, the level of satisfaction and the friendships and just the achievement are very lasting to me, so that was really great. And if Tee Bee Dee is the wild success that I expect it to be, I think this will be right up there.

Avocationist: Were any of the transitions between these different jobs particularly difficult for you?

Robin: CNET was an awkward one for me because I had been a CEO at that point for over a decade, but I did not go into it as a CEO role; I went in to support the founder who was the CEO. I would have been completely incapable of CNET’s CEO. For one thing, I was working part-time, but that was the eye of the storm in terms of the Internet explosion, and my job was sort of to bring management discipline to a very fast-growing, meteoric, crazy environment. So I loved it and I had a great time, but it was quite an adjustment from being the person who ran things, and I had to learn to take orders. One of the first things I did at CNET was such a huge faux pas and looking back on it, I wondered what I was thinking. I was used to making these decisions myself.

Avocationist: What was the faux pas?

Robin: It was silly. The company had gone public but was nowhere near profitability and I started working in October. An employee came in and said, “Do you know that we spend $50,000 on our company Christmas party because everybody gets to bring as many people as they want?” So I said, “Wow! I didn’t know we let you bring people to a fully catered dinner; that is ridiculous.” I decided it would be for employees only and it would be an after-work party. That was a totally stupid, boneheaded move because for our employees at CNET, unlike the employees I worked with at Time Inc., it was a huge perk. They wanted to bring their dates. It was part of why they liked being at the company and it was penny wise and pound foolish. So the founders reversed my decision because it proved so unpopular, but I should never have even done it. It was also being in a support role instead of being a decision-maker.

Avocationist: Yes, because you don’t set the culture. Were there any people that were especially helpful to you in your different jobs or at key turning points?

Robin: I have a particular fondness for my very first investor, Arthur Dubow. He is dead now, but he was my first angel investor who wrote a check when I had absolutely never demonstrated that I could start a company. He was a huge mentor to me, and he is the person I could not have started “Parenting” without.

The other person who made “Parenting” a success is Carol Smith, who was the founding publisher, and now she is the publisher of “Elle” magazine. She was my complete partner in launching the magazine.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced so far, what advice would you give to people who are trying to figure out what to do next?

Robin: I think entrepreneurship is very stereotyped. Stereotypes are different in different eras, but right now there is a stereotype of what the entrepreneur looks like, and I have never fit that. Not just because of gender and now because of age, but I find that entrepreneurs are a much more diverse group than we are given credit for. So we have different motivations. I personally am not motivated by things that a lot of entrepreneurs are motivated by. So just because somebody doesn’t fit the stereotype of what an entrepreneur looks like, it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be good at it.

“There are a lot of parts of entrepreneurship that would be incompatible with happiness for many people.”

Also, there are a lot of parts of entrepreneurship that would be incompatible with happiness for many people. The lack of certainty and the lack of benchmarks; you have to make your own benchmarks eventually, and you don’t get a lot of positive reinforcement. I remember one of my investors with great fondness from “Parenting.” He never gave me one piece of advice that was useful, but at the end of every conversation he would say, “Keep up the good work.” I would say, “Wow! Somebody thinks that I am doing a good job!” Because you have to be so self-directed and in the marketplace, it takes awhile to get anything in the marketplace that is positive. So I think busting those stereotypes is a good thing.

Avocationist: You said that people have different motivations; what would you say are yours for being an entrepreneur?

Robin: Well, they are different for different times in my life. Motivation for “Parenting” was very much that I had been teaching a start-up course as a way of supplementing my income because I worked at a non-profit and didn’t make very much money. The students would come up with new magazine ideas, and my job was to help them figure out if they were good or bad ideas. So when I came up with the idea for “Parenting,” it was more like, “Whoa! I think this is a good idea. Let me just test it.” It wasn’t even to start a company. It was a very incremental thing -- I tend to set incremental challenges, so it wasn’t about starting a company and selling it for millions of dollars. It was more like, “Let me see if this is a good idea. Let me see if it tests well. Let me see if I can raise the money.”

“I would have missed the best thing I ever did in my life.”

Tee Bee Dee is sort of similar. I decided to commit to working hard until 2007, because I worked full-time and didn’t draw a salary and my kids are still pretty young. I said to my kids, “By the end of 2007, we will have succeeded so much that I will be able to hire somebody to replace myself or we will be dead.” The fact is, it is never that short a commitment. Now I don’t even lie to them at 2008; I say 2009. But it is a longer, harder road -- it always is. So for me, I sort of lie to myself in a way and say, “Oh, it will be a year.” Then, “It will be two years.” And then I get through that and I keep going. Other people, they see a whole five-year commitment and they sign up for that in the beginning. I think if I saw the length of the road that it was on “Parenting,” I wouldn’t have done it. I would have missed the best thing I ever did in my life. I sort of sell myself in by little bits and pieces.

Avocationist: So for you, it is sort of like taking the next step; what is the next thing I have to do to figure this out?

Robin: You could have gotten me to stop early on at “Parenting” if somebody offered me a job that I was interested in. I was not that committed, but as I kept going through it and gathering people who wanted to work on it and learning more about the market for “Parenting,” I had one of the moments when my father got diagnosed where I thought, “Huh. If this had happened a month ago, I would have just given up on the magazine and been more with my family.” But I didn’t have that option anymore. I had committed and a bunch of people had given up jobs to work for me. So I knew I had to make it work.” It is rare that you get that kind of clarity. I had a very clear moment because of the drama of my father’s diagnosis.

“My father died knowing that the family was going to be secure financially because “Parenting” was a big success. It all worked out.”

At the time, I really was hopeful he would survive it. It wasn’t like, “He is definitely going to die and I can’t spend enough time with him.” But looking back on it, it all worked out for the best. My presence or absence didn’t make a difference. My father died knowing that the family was going to be secure financially because “Parenting” was a big success. It all worked out.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

Robin: I am one of those people who is always filled with regret, and I try not to do it to myself to much, because when you are an entrepreneur, it is a constant process of realizing what you did wrong and fixing it. So if you have a moment where you think, “Shit! Why did I spend money on that?” -- the money is gone already, so you have learned and you have to move on. So I try not to have regrets. I try to learn from mistakes.

Avocationist: What do you think you will do next, after 2009?

Robin: Oh, that is a long time off. I do not do future planning. I can promise you that I am not writing another book. One was enough for me.

Avocationist: Robin, I really appreciate you talking to me. Thanks.

John Cleghorn served as speechwriter for Bank of America CEO Hugh McColl during the trememdous growth that built the second-largest bank in the US. John's speechwriter role was the first of a successful 18-year career at the bank that also included a job as head of Issues Management.

At the age of 46, with a wife and two young daughters, John has just left his career in banking to answer the call to ministry.

In this second of a two-part interview, John talks about the challenges of facing a major career change and about the need for “courageous conversations” in looking for your calling.

“There was always that option to say, ‘We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,’ but that was way, way too disruptive.”

Take-Aways

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: The desire to go into the seminary never really went away?

John: No, it never went away. As much of a company man as I was and as stimulated as I was by all of that, my internal voices kept reminding me that that wasn’t the best and highest use of my life, as wonderful as it all is. I periodically pulled up considering the seminary and said, “Could I scratch that itch? Could I go to Duke? Could I go to Columbia?” But I had a family and a mortgage and a life in Charlotte and there was no seminary here that suited my theology—then one opened up in Charlotte with a weekend program for second career people.

Avocationist: You mentioned that your banking career wasn't "the best and highest use." Why do you think you felt that way?

John: I am not a “voice in the middle of the night” kind of person, but there is an obligation to constantly ask, “What is possible with my life?” For me that ultimately led to going down this path. Then when the seminary opened, it was so obvious that I was almost completely humbled because quite frankly it required very little sacrifice. There were sacrifices on my family’s part and my wife worked more hours taking care of the family, but to make this kind of transition, all of the pieces were there.

There was always that option to say, “We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,” but that was way, way too disruptive. Everybody has their own equation, I think, but for me it is the natural sum of everything that has been made possible for me by others and my opportunity to apply it.

Avocationist: If you look back over your life, of all the jobs you have done, which one was your favorite at the time you were doing it?

John: That is a great way to ask that question. The answer is every one of them, at the time I was doing them. There was a pinnacle for each one. I can remember a time in journalism where it was just right. I was comfortable in the role, I had enough perspective to appreciate it and I loved it and then that sort of trailed off. The peak period at the bank probably lasted longer because it was so fun and so completely engaging for so many years that it was the best job I had ever had. And then the issues management job was the best job I could ever imagine, and now; I have not done this ministry work full-time, but I have done it enough on the side to know that it is the best job I could have ever asked for and I hope it feeds me that way from here on out. I can’t single out one thing. Part of that—the very fact that I can’t remember a year or a day that I didn’t say, “It doesn’t get any better than this"— is another reason for just the enormous gratitude I feel, because none of this is my doing. That creates a sense of obligation in me. And reminds me that I have had a very privileged path.

Avocationist: John, were there any transitions in your career that were particularly difficult?

John: The most difficult was probably the time when I realized that I probably needed to think about life after the bank. It had been so intoxicating and so fulfilling and I could have remained there for the rest of my career. I had absolute respect for the company and its management, but in a sense I was so focused in my 30’s, that I don’t know that I was truly plumbing the depths of my being and asking myself the hard questions. Those kind of built up and there was a one- or two-year period where I was groping again about what comes next, and that is hard, especially when you have obligations.

Avocationist: Do you think most of us go through those periods?

John: There are some folks that just cruise right through adulthood and never wrestle with those questions, and God bless them. There is liberation in that, but for many, for whatever reason, coming to grips with the fact that I might need to recreate myself was jarring. But again, I had a pretty gentle environment in which to do that because the bank continued to be supportive and encouraging. I can’t say that I was walking around unhappy but internally I was struggling with the questions. Other than that, it was transitional from newspapering to one application in banking and then a different career in banking. Those were kind of logical progressions, so it took some intentionality in thinking, “What am I best at and where are my rough edges?” but it was not from AC to DC.

Avocationist: You have talked about a number of people in your life that have been particularly helpful, Mr. McColl and Joe Martin being two. Were there other folks who came along at key moments during your decision-making process?

John: Constantly – like the person I had breakfast with an hour ago. Thinking back, I grew up in Atlanta and I was around people who had positions of influence and power and success and prosperity, so I had a front row seat to see how people handle that. I was never without the opportunity to see what people who were very successful did with their lives. Which ones gave back and which ones, for whatever reason, didn’t. I think all of that was subconscious. It wasn’t like when I was ten or fifteen or eighteen that I was some methodological student of leadership, but all of that was sinking into my pores.

When I got out of college I came to a city [Charlotte] where there was sort of this social contract that you could network with anybody you wanted to. I did meet people at church and in the community and I always wanted to be active. My way of being involved in the community when I was a newspaper reporter was to be very involved in non-profits. There again, in Charlotte the Presbyterian Churches are very connectional so I met lots and lots of people. In addition to Mr. McColl and Joe Martin there is Doug Oldenburg, who was a senior pastor of Covenant church and ran the seminary and then was elected to the top office of the Presbyterian Church nationally. He has been an influence. And people like you who were my peers. I saw them asking these same questions, and that was a subtle encouragement that “This isn’t crazy.”

Avocationist: It’s really not. Actually, what I'm finding out is that it is really quite normal.

John: There is some unspoken community out there in the catacombs finding each other. There were highly visible people who made time for me and were generous to me beyond anything that I could ever ask for or expected, and then the average Joe’s who said, “You know what? I have some of those same questions, too.” It is sort of a communion of saints.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what to do next with their lives?

John: Think long-term. Understand that life has its stages. In Ecclesiastes it is written, “There is a season for everything," so be content with what you are doing, but always have your eye on the horizon. Be very intentional in the moment of saying, “What am I learning? How am I growing? Am I stagnating? Am I around people who are stretching me? Am I stretching myself?” Figure out how can I put these phases together in a logical progression and never, ever, ever forget joy. A book that everybody’s heard about, “What Color is Your Parachute?" has a concept of a fundamental, simple idea: ask yourself "What is my number?” or “Am I tied forever to what I am doing or can I do something else?”

You have to have the courage and you have to have faith—and I can't not bring my faith to it—to take that step. And if you have faith, that makes it a whole lot easier. It might look very precarious in the short term, but I think the scripture tells us over and over again that there is a plan and we just need to listen for it.

Avocationist: I think a lot of it is just you have to be okay with what it is, too. Maybe part of it is just accepting that there is a plan, that you are a certain thing and maybe it is different than what you thought you ought to be. It doesn’t go away.

John: It is a process of very intentional listening and having humility. One of the best lines I heard when I was in school, “If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans,” because we are not in control. If we are humble enough to listen and say, “Thy will be done,” things become clearer . Even if we don’t have a faith context like that, but ask that question of yourself in whatever spiritual framework you have.

Sometimes I think subconsciously we want to impose a path that we have laid out. By 30 I am going to be here and by 35 I am going to be there and by 40…, but it doesn’t work that way. And to your point earlier, sometimes you really have to take a little bit of a grain of humility and say, I'm okay if people think that I am not going to be a rock star right now, or if my neighbor looks down his nose at me because I am not the most powerful guy, or whatever. Because that is just at that moment and you are on a path to somewhere else. You are always on a path to somewhere else, if that makes any sense.

Avocationist: It makes a lot of sense, and I totally agree. It is really all through the gospel if you look at it. “Why birds don’t worry; they have plenty to eat; why do you worry?”

John: Yes, and that takes courage and strength and I am not saying that I always have it. I credit my wife with having terrific courage and faith because she never intended to marry a pastor and she has demonstrated that to me because there are adjustments to be made.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

John: That is such a good question. I think where I have tried to discern a path for me personally, it has indirectly and sometimes very directly had implications for my family. So I don’t know if they are regrets so much as sort of a deep awareness that there is a tension between trying to find your path as an individual, what are you put on earth to do at any given stage in your life, and the ramifications that has for those around you. You've got to always try to figure out, “How do I reconcile those?” At times I know I have been absent and sometimes I know I have put hardships on my wife and I have been away from my little girls more hours in a week than I would prefer, and I don’t know now to reconcile that right now.

"Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you."

Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you. I don’t have an answer for that. How do you say, “What is the very best I can be? What is the greatest that I can stretch?" without that having implications on those around me who are impacted?

I don’t know if it is a regret because I feel enormously blessed beyond anything that I could ever ask for or deserve, but I guess I am just keenly aware of the implications for others. I just pray that they are held by the same strong arms that I feel held by.

Avocationist: Can I answer it for you based on what we have talked about? I think that obviously your family is very important to you and your faith is very important to you and giving back is important to you. You have talked about three areas and I think of you that way.

John: You too. I love the idea of this service you are doing for others, because it is a bit of an underground society.

Avocationist: Yes, and I think it is hard to find people to talk to about it. The internet is creating new opportunities to have a big impact just by building a very focused website.

John: Part of it is that these are courageous conversations. For whatever reason, our society doesn’t give permission to ask these questions out loud. Or even, as a rising Senior Vice President of a bank to admit that I have these questions. For whatever reason, I think our society doesn’t say to that man or that woman, “It’s okay.”

"They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat."

There are many people asking themselves the same questions. They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat. For whatever reason our external public society doesn’t always smile on that, and it is a shame.

Avocationist: Cultures in organizations and society can be so overwhelming and powerful. It can be so dominant that it kind of snuffs out the “small voice” that’s speaking to you.

John: Yes; and we as a culture don’t allow much quiet and peace and solitude. Congratulations to you for doing this. I know it will change people’s paths in a positive way.

Avocationist: Thanks a lot, John. It was great.