Avocationist

John Cleghorn served as speechwriter for Bank of America CEO Hugh McColl during the trememdous growth that built the second-largest bank in the US. John's speechwriter role was the first of a successful 18-year career at the bank that also included a job as head of Issues Management.

At the age of 46, with a wife and two young daughters, John has just left his career in banking to answer the call to ministry.

In this second of a two-part interview, John talks about the challenges of facing a major career change and about the need for “courageous conversations” in looking for your calling.

“There was always that option to say, ‘We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,’ but that was way, way too disruptive.”

Take-Aways

Factor in the practicalities of life with the recurring themes in your career & you just might find a perfect solution: John had investigated many options for going to seminary, but decided that traditional courses of study would be too disruptive for his family. When a new program opened in his hometown, he knew it was the right next step.

Gratitude is a powerful source of courage. Remember those who have helped you along the way: John recognizes the importance to his career of the sacrifices and support of his family and friends. To him, this creates a strong sense of obligation to continually ask how he can best use his gifts.

Be open to help from high and low: John has gotten advice at critical times in his life and career from a wide range of people: leaders, mentors, peers and friends. Be open to learning from surprising sources.

Read the full interview:

Avocationist: The desire to go into the seminary never really went away?

"As much of a company man as I was and as stimulated as I was by all of that, my internal voices kept reminding me that that wasn’t the best and highest use of my life, as wonderful as it all is.''

John: No, it never went away. As much of a company man as I was and as stimulated as I was by all of that, my internal voices kept reminding me that that wasn’t the best and highest use of my life, as wonderful as it all is. I periodically pulled up considering the seminary and said, “Could I scratch that itch? Could I go to Duke? Could I go to Columbia?” But I had a family and a mortgage and a life in Charlotte and there was no seminary here that suited my theology—then one opened up in Charlotte with a weekend program for second career people.

Avocationist: You mentioned that your banking career wasn't "the best and highest use." Why do you think you felt that way?

"When the seminary opened, it was so obvious that I was almost completely humbled because quite frankly it required very little sacrifice."

John: I am not a “voice in the middle of the night” kind of person, but there is an obligation to constantly ask, “What is possible with my life?” For me that ultimately led to going down this path. Then when the seminary opened, it was so obvious that I was almost completely humbled because quite frankly it required very little sacrifice. There were sacrifices on my family’s part and my wife worked more hours taking care of the family, but to make this kind of transition, all of the pieces were there.

There was always that option to say, “We are pulling up roots and moving to Princeton and we are going to live in a dorm with two little girls,” but that was way, way too disruptive. Everybody has their own equation, I think, but for me it is the natural sum of everything that has been made possible for me by others and my opportunity to apply it.

Avocationist: If you look back over your life, of all the jobs you have done, which one was your favorite at the time you were doing it?

"The very fact that I can’t remember a year or a day that I didn’t say, ‘It doesn’t get any better than this’— is another reason for just the enormous gratitude I feel, because none of this is my doing."

John: That is a great way to ask that question. The answer is every one of them, at the time I was doing them. There was a pinnacle for each one. I can remember a time in journalism where it was just right. I was comfortable in the role, I had enough perspective to appreciate it and I loved it and then that sort of trailed off. The peak period at the bank probably lasted longer because it was so fun and so completely engaging for so many years that it was the best job I had ever had. And then the issues management job was the best job I could ever imagine, and now; I have not done this ministry work full-time, but I have done it enough on the side to know that it is the best job I could have ever asked for and I hope it feeds me that way from here on out. I can’t single out one thing. Part of that—the very fact that I can’t remember a year or a day that I didn’t say, “It doesn’t get any better than this"— is another reason for just the enormous gratitude I feel, because none of this is my doing. That creates a sense of obligation in me. And reminds me that I have had a very privileged path.

Avocationist: John, were there any transitions in your career that were particularly difficult?

"The most difficult was probably the time when I realized that I probably needed to think about life after the bank."

John: The most difficult was probably the time when I realized that I probably needed to think about life after the bank. It had been so intoxicating and so fulfilling and I could have remained there for the rest of my career. I had absolute respect for the company and its management, but in a sense I was so focused in my 30’s, that I don’t know that I was truly plumbing the depths of my being and asking myself the hard questions. Those kind of built up and there was a one- or two-year period where I was groping again about what comes next, and that is hard, especially when you have obligations.

Avocationist: Do you think most of us go through those periods?

"I can’t say that I was walking around unhappy but internally I was struggling with the questions."

John: There are some folks that just cruise right through adulthood and never wrestle with those questions, and God bless them. There is liberation in that, but for many, for whatever reason, coming to grips with the fact that I might need to recreate myself was jarring. But again, I had a pretty gentle environment in which to do that because the bank continued to be supportive and encouraging. I can’t say that I was walking around unhappy but internally I was struggling with the questions. Other than that, it was transitional from newspapering to one application in banking and then a different career in banking. Those were kind of logical progressions, so it took some intentionality in thinking, “What am I best at and where are my rough edges?” but it was not from AC to DC.

Avocationist: You have talked about a number of people in your life that have been particularly helpful, Mr. McColl and Joe Martin being two. Were there other folks who came along at key moments during your decision-making process?

"I was never without the opportunity to see what people who were very successful did with their lives. Which ones gave back and which ones, for whatever reason, didn’t."

John: Constantly – like the person I had breakfast with an hour ago. Thinking back, I grew up in Atlanta and I was around people who had positions of influence and power and success and prosperity, so I had a front row seat to see how people handle that. I was never without the opportunity to see what people who were very successful did with their lives. Which ones gave back and which ones, for whatever reason, didn’t. I think all of that was subconscious. It wasn’t like when I was ten or fifteen or eighteen that I was some methodological student of leadership, but all of that was sinking into my pores.

When I got out of college I came to a city [Charlotte] where there was sort of this social contract that you could network with anybody you wanted to. I did meet people at church and in the community and I always wanted to be active. My way of being involved in the community when I was a newspaper reporter was to be very involved in non-profits. There again, in Charlotte the Presbyterian Churches are very connectional so I met lots and lots of people. In addition to Mr. McColl and Joe Martin there is Doug Oldenburg, who was a senior pastor of Covenant church and ran the seminary and then was elected to the top office of the Presbyterian Church nationally. He has been an influence. And people like you who were my peers. I saw them asking these same questions, and that was a subtle encouragement that “This isn’t crazy.”

Avocationist: It’s really not. Actually, what I'm finding out is that it is really quite normal.

"There were highly visible people who made time for me and were generous to me beyond anything that I could ever ask for or expected, and then the average Joe’s who said, ‘You know what? I have some of those same questions, too."

John: There is some unspoken community out there in the catacombs finding each other. There were highly visible people who made time for me and were generous to me beyond anything that I could ever ask for or expected, and then the average Joe’s who said, “You know what? I have some of those same questions, too.” It is sort of a communion of saints.

Avocationist: Based on what you have learned and experienced, what advice would you give to people who are figuring out what to do next with their lives?

"It might look very precarious in the short term, but I think the scripture tells us over and over again that there is a plan and we just need to listen for it."

John: Think long-term. Understand that life has its stages. In Ecclesiastes it is written, “There is a season for everything," so be content with what you are doing, but always have your eye on the horizon. Be very intentional in the moment of saying, “What am I learning? How am I growing? Am I stagnating? Am I around people who are stretching me? Am I stretching myself?” Figure out how can I put these phases together in a logical progression and never, ever, ever forget joy. A book that everybody’s heard about, “What Color is Your Parachute?" has a concept of a fundamental, simple idea: ask yourself "What is my number?” or “Am I tied forever to what I am doing or can I do something else?”

You have to have the courage and you have to have faith—and I can't not bring my faith to it—to take that step. And if you have faith, that makes it a whole lot easier. It might look very precarious in the short term, but I think the scripture tells us over and over again that there is a plan and we just need to listen for it.

Avocationist: I think a lot of it is just you have to be okay with what it is, too. Maybe part of it is just accepting that there is a plan, that you are a certain thing and maybe it is different than what you thought you ought to be. It doesn’t go away.

"Sometimes I think subconsciously we want to impose a path that we have laid out. By 30 I am going to be here and by 35 I am going to be there and by 40…, but it doesn’t work that way."

John: It is a process of very intentional listening and having humility. One of the best lines I heard when I was in school, “If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans,” because we are not in control. If we are humble enough to listen and say, “Thy will be done,” things become clearer . Even if we don’t have a faith context like that, but ask that question of yourself in whatever spiritual framework you have.

Sometimes I think subconsciously we want to impose a path that we have laid out. By 30 I am going to be here and by 35 I am going to be there and by 40…, but it doesn’t work that way. And to your point earlier, sometimes you really have to take a little bit of a grain of humility and say, I'm okay if people think that I am not going to be a rock star right now, or if my neighbor looks down his nose at me because I am not the most powerful guy, or whatever. Because that is just at that moment and you are on a path to somewhere else. You are always on a path to somewhere else, if that makes any sense.

Avocationist: It makes a lot of sense, and I totally agree. It is really all through the gospel if you look at it. “Why birds don’t worry; they have plenty to eat; why do you worry?”

"I credit my wife with having terrific courage and faith because she never intended to marry a pastor."

John: Yes, and that takes courage and strength and I am not saying that I always have it. I credit my wife with having terrific courage and faith because she never intended to marry a pastor and she has demonstrated that to me because there are adjustments to be made.

Avocationist: Do you have any regrets?

"I don’t know if they are regrets so much as a deep awareness that there is a tension between trying to find what are you put on earth to do at any given stage in your life, and the ramifications that has for those around you."

John: That is such a good question. I think where I have tried to discern a path for me personally, it has indirectly and sometimes very directly had implications for my family. So I don’t know if they are regrets so much as sort of a deep awareness that there is a tension between trying to find your path as an individual, what are you put on earth to do at any given stage in your life, and the ramifications that has for those around you. You've got to always try to figure out, “How do I reconcile those?” At times I know I have been absent and sometimes I know I have put hardships on my wife and I have been away from my little girls more hours in a week than I would prefer, and I don’t know now to reconcile that right now.

"Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you."

Whatever your brass ring is, if you are going to reach for it, sometimes that means leaning away from those who are closest to you. I don’t have an answer for that. How do you say, “What is the very best I can be? What is the greatest that I can stretch?" without that having implications on those around me who are impacted?

I don’t know if it is a regret because I feel enormously blessed beyond anything that I could ever ask for or deserve, but I guess I am just keenly aware of the implications for others. I just pray that they are held by the same strong arms that I feel held by.

Avocationist: Can I answer it for you based on what we have talked about? I think that obviously your family is very important to you and your faith is very important to you and giving back is important to you. You have talked about three areas and I think of you that way.

John: You too. I love the idea of this service you are doing for others, because it is a bit of an underground society.

Avocationist: Yes, and I think it is hard to find people to talk to about it. The internet is creating new opportunities to have a big impact just by building a very focused website.

"Part of it is that these are courageous conversations. For whatever reason, our society doesn’t give permission to ask these questions out loud."

John: Part of it is that these are courageous conversations. For whatever reason, our society doesn’t give permission to ask these questions out loud. Or even, as a rising Senior Vice President of a bank to admit that I have these questions. For whatever reason, I think our society doesn’t say to that man or that woman, “It’s okay.”

"They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat."

There are many people asking themselves the same questions. They might want to go into social work, or back to medical school or some other direction. They need to know that that is not admitting defeat. For whatever reason our external public society doesn’t always smile on that, and it is a shame.

Avocationist: Cultures in organizations and society can be so overwhelming and powerful. It can be so dominant that it kind of snuffs out the “small voice” that’s speaking to you.

John: Yes; and we as a culture don’t allow much quiet and peace and solitude. Congratulations to you for doing this. I know it will change people’s paths in a positive way.

Avocationist: Thanks a lot, John. It was great.